University students rising up against ties with Israel (title edited by MNHQ at request of OP)

[EasterIssland]

Many university students are raising up against the ties their universities have with Israel. Students are asking for this agreements to stop
I can see this is happening in USA which has been in the news quite a lot but I can also read news about Paris as well as UK.

I really doubt much will change but I’m glad people are against these agreements. We can’t change what Israel / Hamas do. But we should be able to change what our governments / universities do.

Sadly, probably.

30-40 years ago, I would have had some faith in the critical thinking skills of university academics.

Now, like many of us, I know a few, and they are startlingly under-educated, reactive, biased.

Palestinians' endless 'victim' stance.

Just wow.

Reality is that we sleep well in our beds at night because big men are prepared to do bad things.

I'm ex-military, and I can assure you that not all of the soldiers who let you sleep safely are "big men." And there are rules and laws governing armed conflict.

From Hamza Howidy in Gaza. An excerpt:

"As a Gazan and as a Palestinian, I want the protesters and the organizers of these protests to know that their hateful speech harms us. The Jewish person or Israeli you are intimidating during your rally may be the granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor or a family member of an Israeli slain or abducted by Hamas on October 7. These folks would be your partners if the protests were about achieving lasting peace and justice for Palestinians and Israelis."

https://x.com/HowidyHamza/status/1783564648752533833

https://x.com/sandranoduerme/status/1784234722974957829?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

This is so moving. I think the university protests in America (and now beyond) has given Gazans some hope at long last.

I don’t really massively want to engage with people still defending genocide but all the rubbish about Israel protecting us - what from these innocent men, women and children being forced to live in tents because the most moral army in the world has bombed their houses and most of Gaza to dust?

@Fordian

I hope you didn't intend to come across as so prejudiced and dismissive of Islam, Palestinians and students campaigning for human rights.

It might be worth remembering that there are people here who have loved ones who aren't sleeping soundly anymore due to the actions of the IDF and the decisions of the Israeli government. Because they and/or their families have been killed by the IDF and the decisions of the Israeli government.

You may find the deaths of innocent people help you sleep soundly. Many of us don't. And I'm actually glad I can't sleep soundly in the knowledge of what is happening, because the day I contentedly sit back while innocent people are murdered en masse would be the day I lose my own values and moral compass. Which are more important than a good night's sleep.

Can I suggest that a good night's sleep might help you to think more clearly? Whether you get one or not is immaterial to what happens in the ME though I guess people performatively not sleeping might explain so much of the silliness & self indulgence on our streets.

Do you sleep well when your friends have been murdered? Nothing performative here.

Again though, using some of the niche alternatives types of Zionism to discredit the whole movement is not a good faith position. Eg, a small number of feminists believe that women should practice political lesbianism. ‘Feminism’ is therefore an anti-man movement.

I don’t really massively want to engage with people still defending genocide

I'm sorry but I can't let this go. I've not seen anyone on here defending genocide. Yes of course there is a range of views on the current situation in the ME, many of which you may disagree with, but "defending genocide" is not one I've seen on here. And don't come at me with oh someone said it on a different thread but it got deleted, because it's BS.

As humans, our distress at crimes committed against others acts as a moral compass that guides positive action.

It is only when this distress gets so high that it interferes with our functioning that it is an actual problem.

Do you not feel empathy?

May I suggest you don’t patronise people having a normal and prosocial response to distressing events. And be especially mindful of people on here who have lost someone in this conflict.

The people in Gaza aren’t some kind of abstract concept, they are actual people.

Some of the types mentioned in those articles are hardly niche, given their associations with significant figures and organisations.

Whilst you might have not read people defending it. I’ve read people justifying it : but Hamas , but they were terrorists , but why did they go back to the north , but people haven’t lost much , but they elected Hamas

@EasterIssland this really has brought out some of the worst of humanity. There are people who are comfortable stating a Palestinian or a Muslim life is worth less to them than an Israeli or non-Muslim life. It's disgusting.

Agreed, noone on here is defending genocide. The trouble is when people try to say something that reflects complexity people just scream back that thet are defending genocide. There is no place for a conversation once that point is reached. It is perfectly possible, sensible & humane to argue that what is happening is appalling & should not be happening but that arguing about genocide is not helpful here and that the solutions will be complex & will not fit neatly into the black white boxes of Israel-evil-genocidal-mperialist vs palestinian-victim-freedom-fighters.

Oh come on, cop yourself on. I do not believe that the majority of self proclaimed anti-zionists in the context of this conflict are ‘cultural anti-zionists’ or ‘reform anti-zionists’. They hate Jews. Saying that they are anti-Zionist is becoming the socially acceptable way of saying they don’t like Jews.
I’m not sure why you would defend that.

My point is that it makes no difference to geopolitics whether I sleep well or not. Its not about you. Or me. Its about how the people of Iarael & Gaza & the WB & the wider ME & key negotiators outside the region can come together to come up with a sensible sustainable solition. I sure as hell hope they are getting some sleep. And frankly the sheer waste of resources being poured into US campuses & policing endless protests here is a bloody disgrace. Who do you think suffers while the police are otherwise engaged? Women& children affected by VAWG, small businesses who have been burgled, families & teenagers threatened by gangs, etc etc etc. Yes Im so pleased the marchers can sleep well at night as that is now the metric of our humanity.

Interestingly I did once suffer a horrific violent bereavement & I slept intensely & deeply because it was my way of dealing with that intense pain. I shut down completely. But as I say, I dont expect anyone to care about that.

I'm not defending people who hate Jews. As I've repeatedly said, antisemitism is wrong, as is any hatred of others based on ethnicity or faith.

What I have encountered quite a bit through interfaith work is people using terms in different ways than others might assume. People sometimes use terms which come across as anti-Islam or anti-Judaism, when actually they don't intend it that way. When I've spoken with those people about the terms and explained how they can be experienced by people, the majority of the time, people have actually said that wasn't their intention and changed their use.

Anti-Zionism is a term which some people use in criticism of, for example, the expansionist and aggressive politics of the 'settler' movement, without intending to express opposition to the existence of Israel. It's not a term I would use to describe my own political views and I would challenge people using it in that way, as I don't think it's ok to use the term in that way.

American police are wild. Really aggressive. They even detained Jill Stein at the protests who is a US presidential candidate

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sjleabj110

You were responding to @Scirocco who you may not be aware has personally lost loved ones in this conflict. This isn't a far away conflict for some people who post on these threads and that should be remembered.

Interestingly I did once suffer a horrific violent bereavement & I slept intensely & deeply because it was my way of dealing with that intense pain. I shut down completely.
That was your bodies way of coping it is not everyone's and I think dismissing someone who has had loved ones killed in this conflict is pretty low.

I guess people performatively not sleeping might explain so much of the silliness & self indulgence on our streets.
The poster you were directly responding to with this comment as I said has had loved ones murdered and definitely does not engage in "silliness and self indulgence on your streets"

I am sorry to hear you experienced such an horrific trauma.

Reality is that we sleep well in our beds at night because big men are prepared to do bad things.
@Fordian
What century have you rocked up from! I hope I never meet any of these "big men" you speak of

@SharonEllis

I'm sorry for your loss.

You may not feel like this conflict is about you, but please recognise that it is about other people.

Personally, I also see human rights and humanitarian issues as being relevant to all of us.

@Scirocco I can understand that people may use terms which come across as anti Jewish/Islam/any other faith because they lack understanding of it and are then horrified as the intent wasn’t there. And why should they know if they are not of that faith, actually? Easy mistake to rectify and we move on.

It’s the way in which anti-Zionism is being bandied about as an excuse to perpetrate racist behaviour as evidenced by some of the student protests. As though it is ok to allow chants in favour of Hamas because ‘hey, we’re anti zionists’ or some ill informed nonsense. As I mentioned previously, it’s like it has become the socially acceptable way to present prejudice.

And if those students using the term don’t really understand what it means then it’s a pretty poor reflection of the education they are receiving at, in some cases, Ivy League colleges.

@Dulra
You were responding to @Scirocco who you may not be aware has personally lost loved ones in this conflict. This isn't a far away conflict for some people who post on these threads and that should be remembered.
I did not know Scirocco had lost loved ones in the conflict & am sorry for her loss. The thread is about university students protesting and my comments are made in that context.

Interestingly I did once suffer a horrific violent bereavement & I slept intensely & deeply because it was my way of dealing with that intense pain. I shut down completely.
That was your bodies way of coping it is not everyone's and I think dismissing someone who has had loved ones killed in this conflict is pretty low.

Yes, that was my point - that each of us respond differently. You have conveniently cut the bit where I say I don't expect anyone to care about it. Several posters have made a point about the morality or otherwise of people who can sleep in night. I was pointing out that it is not a useful measure of their morality or particularly useful to hold up not sleeping as some sort of a moral good in a context where sensible,rational thought is needed.

I guess people performatively not sleeping might explain so much of the silliness & self indulgence on our streets.
The poster you were directly responding to with this comment as I said has had loved ones murdered and definitely does not engage in "silliness and self indulgence on your streets"

The comments were made in response to the context of the thread which is about students protesting & was clearly about such protests here & in the US. I stand by my comments that many of them are silly and self indulgent.

I am sorry to hear you experienced such an horrific trauma.

@ChalkWitch you might be surprised how widespread the use can be of terms which can have prejudiced or hate-filled subtexts or meanings. Many people aren't that aware of these things outside of their own professional or personal spheres. I've encountered senior professionals, PhD graduates, etc who are experts in their fields but who simply haven't the same level of understanding in other areas.