University students rising up against ties with Israel (title edited by MNHQ at request of OP)

[EasterIssland]

Many university students are raising up against the ties their universities have with Israel. Students are asking for this agreements to stop
I can see this is happening in USA which has been in the news quite a lot but I can also read news about Paris as well as UK.

I really doubt much will change but I’m glad people are against these agreements. We can’t change what Israel / Hamas do. But we should be able to change what our governments / universities do.

You aren't going to change the minds of most of the world on this. There is agreement that Israel are illegally occupying gaza amongst others. Israel are violent, illegal occupiers and there will never be peace whilst they continue with this regime. You can align yourself with Israel if you like, I don't care. Fortunately in the past seven months while Israel has been showing the world who they are people have actually been listening. Even Biden is wise to their shite now 🤡

How people are pushed to more extreme views in these little bubbles of discourse and how they don't even realise they're extreme until they express them on the national radio and get told off by the education secretary. Do you think the girl on the radio was a genuinely controversial choice, or actually fairly representative of a group who over the last 7 months (or probably longer, given the National Union of Students) have been whipped up to think that a whole country is evil (colonisers!), and that people who think that country deserves to exist are utterly despicable people (fuck Zios!)?

She doesn't think her view is extreme. Her view of 'why can't they all just get along in one big country (that isn't Jewish)' sounds like the 'nice' right opinion to have. You see it discussed on here when gullible people claim that Hamas aren't antisemitic and would be fine with this because their charter says they don't hate Jews, just Israel.

@noblegiraffe do you think Palestine has a right to exist?

Of course. I don't think Hamas should be allowed anything to do with it though.

Feck sake I had a reply typed out and then lost it. To shorthand it no I don't think her extreme views are mainstream, no more than I would assume that the extreme views of the Pro Israel brigade are the mainstream.

There are gullible people here who believe that Israel are doing their best to prevent civillian killings even when presented with evidence of them shooting civillians as they run away, the killing of Hind, the multiple videos we have seen of them shooting people waving white flags and in some cases hiding bodies. These same people think that Israel should be allowed to continue to occupy the Palestinian territories, there are gobshites and extremists on all sides of this but they are not the mainstream view. Most people can see that Hamas needs to go, Netanyahu and his racist government needs to go, a 2 state solution needs to be implemented where Israel has no control over Palestinians and that both Palestinians and Israelis equally deserve to live in peace. Most people just want lasting peace.

To shorthand it no I don't think her extreme views are mainstream

Mainstream in general, or mainstream among those in university encampments?

@noblegiraffe where do you think Palestine should be, as in which geographical areas should it cover?

Amongst the university encampments. Just like the racist professor up thread who was fired wouldn't be representative of pro Israel professors. I think far, far too many people are tying to amp up fear to amp up hate and it is working. It started with the rhetoric around the 'anti Israel hate marches' and on and on it has gone. You can see the spitting hate from some posters here when they mention pro Palestinian marches or as they would phrase them 'anti Israel' marches or 'pro Hamas' marches. It's insidious and it is causing harm. There was a pro Israel bloke in Australia who became so paranoid by this rhetoric that he left a bomb outside a house with a Palestinian flag. Protestors are being ran over with cars. People need to start stopping and thinking before they villainize whole groups of people based of the actions of one.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna151307

You aren't going to change the minds of most of the world on this.

I don't know what you mean by "the rest of the world" or what they think (and I suspect that neither does anyone else).

However, my point is that how International Law is interpreted and how it is applied seems to be rather inconsistent.

No-one was jumping up and down on behalf of the Palestinians when Jordan firstly 'stole' their land and then abandoned them. Where was the outrage in "the rest of the world" then?

Or maybe it's OK if Arabs steal from other Arabs, but if Jews do that everyone looses their minds ?🙄

I didn't say the 'rest of the world'.

No-one was jumping up and down on behalf of the Palestinians when Jordan firstly 'stole' their land and then abandoned them. Where was the outrage in "the rest of the world" then?

Fuck knows. I wasn't born then.

This was on sky news today

A total of 97% of campus demonstrations at US universities over the war in Gaza since mid-April have been peaceful, research has found.
The Armed Conflict Location and Event Data project (ACLED) said data from analysis of 553 demonstrations across the US between 18 April and 3 May showed fewer than 20 resulted in any serious interpersonal violence or property damage
The independent non-profit organisation, which tracks political violence and political protests globally, said that there had been at least 70 instances of forceful police intervention against the protests over the same period.

Before anyone jumps on me I am well aware of incidents of anti semitism, violence and even islamophobia all of which are unacceptable.
I just found the above surprising as the media largely focuses on the negative aspects (not just in regards to the protests but in all other aspects of this conflict)
But this study is saying they have largely been peaceful

I don't know what is meant by or anything about the thoughts of "most of the world" either.

"No-one was jumping up and down on behalf of the Palestinians when Jordan firstly 'stole' their land and then abandoned them. Where was the outrage in "the rest of the world" then?

Fuck knows. I wasn't born then."

Well I wasn't born then either, but I still think the Palestinians got some pretty lousy treatment from their Arab neighbours, while the rest of the world looked on.

The negatives it’s what gives the clicks =€€$$$££

Most of the world agree that Israel is illegally occupying Gaza.

Yeah it is lousy. The world was very different then wasn't it. They weren't watching starving children and children with their limbs blown off on their Instagram stories. They didn't have access to 24hr news. They didnt have cameras in their pockets all of the time. The world was much smaller and people more insular. Thankfully now we have access to what is happening on the ground in places like Gaza and we can choose to use our voices when we see people getting pretty lousy treatment.

@TextureSeeker "Thankfully now we have access to what is happening on the ground in places like Gaza and we can choose to use our voices when we see people getting pretty lousy treatment."

I agree, but I think it's a shame when people don't choose to raise their voices about human rights violations in some Middle Eastern countries such as Iran and UAE.

The war in Myanamar goes almost un-noticed

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-59699556

as does Gender Inequality in South Sudan

https://www.concern.net/news/gender-equality-in-south-sudan

British people drawing lines on maps of countries far away never ends well, so I'd leave that for others to agree on.

I think far, far too many people are tying to amp up fear to amp up hate and it is working.

Indeed, on both sides. You only appear to list incidents on one side, however.

I was replying to your posts, you have as far as I have seen only been vocal against Pro Palestinian protests/protesters, that is certainly all you mentioned in the posts of yours I was replying to. In the media the Pro Israel protests are not getting the same treatment as Pro Palestinian protests for some reason even though there has been vile behaviour there too. But yes I agree, as I mentioned in my previous posts to you, you cannot generalise based off the bad behaviour of a few.

I am glad you agree though and see how damaging it to tar all protests/protesters as the same. There is nothing to be gained by amplifying the bad behaviour but ignoring the 1000s upon 1000s of protesters who have behaved in a respectable manner.

you have as far as I have seen only been vocal against Pro Palestinian protests/protesters

Incorrect. I have clearly said that there are dickheads and racists on both sides.

This thread is about the campus protests, so talking about the campus protestors and their behaviour should rather be expected?

damaging it to tar all protests/protesters as the same

I think it is damaging to try to gloss over or minimise the poor behaviour or shitty opinions of one side by pointing in the direction of poor behaviour or shitty opinions on the other side as if that somehow justifies it.

I also wonder what it would take for you accept there might be a general issue with shitty opinions if they repeatedly appear on protest signs, in chants, and are aired on national radio in a prime time slot by a chosen representative, but that's not enough?

Incidentally, here's the report of the investigation into antisemitism in the National Union of Students that was published last year. It found that there's a problem, particularly around Palestine/Israel discourse.

https://assets.nationbuilder.com/nus/pages/108/attachments/original/1673471780/Independent_Investigation_into_Antisemitism_Report_NUS_12_January_2023.pdf?1673471780

OK, apologies. I have only seen you speak out repeatedly about Pro Palestinian protests, like I said certainly on the posts of yours I have replied to.

Like you I too have said that there are idiots and extremists on both sides. Where we differ is that I do not believe that they represent all or most or even close to that. Like the figures parking posted earlier shows the majority of these protests are trouble-free. Personally I do not believe vilainiizing and generalising helps anyone, clearly from your post you disagree.

You think that saying Israel should end their occupation is troublesome whereas I think Israel ending their occupation is the only way peace will ever be found. We clearly have vastly differently viewpoints 🤷🏻‍♀️

You think that saying Israel should end their occupation is troublesome whereas I think Israel ending their occupation is the only way peace will ever be found. We clearly have vastly differently viewpoints

Yeah, because you appear to have made mine up 🤷‍♀️

For goodness sake, the majority of people are using words and peaceful action to decry their outrage against the violent crimes being committed against the people in Palestine, crimes that are being committed by the government of Israel and those who blindly obey them.

What is extreme here? The destruction of life sustaining infrastructure, the indiscriminate killing of children, women and men, the destruction of cultural sites that breathe meaning and significance into everyday life, the destruction of peoples sanctuaries, their homes, of everything they have ever known? Or the non violent outrage against it?

You speak of ‘the end game’, as if everyone is secretly hoping to wipe out Jewish people. This is not the beginning of the past, this is generations of trauma being used to justify crimes against humanity.

What is the end game for Gaza?

Of course the student on the radio didn’t think that Israel had a right to exist. It’s blatantly obvious that is where the protest discourse is headed. Any time anyone says ‘end the occupation’ or ‘fuck Zionism’ they are getting closer to that conclusion.

Sorry if I misunderstood this, it does seem to imply that you find 'end the occupation' troublesome. I presumed by your words any time anyone you meant what you said and I cannot see a way that the illegal occupation can end if those words cannot be said outloud any time or by anyone. Perhaps you should clear up what you meant by that if I am so wrong?

There was talk upthread about de-investment of Israeli business being one of the demands of the students, but to be honest I don't think that serve any purpose This war is like every other war. It's about money, power, land and resources. The Hamas leadership don't give a shiny shit about the Palestinian people they just want to hang onto power and all it's trappings. To Blame the average Palestinian for "voting them in" is stupid because most weren't eligible to vote in 2006. It's like saying people who voted for the Tories in 2010 are responsible for the current shower of shit.
On the other hand Israel had their last elections 2 years ago, so to be fair there are a lot of people who can't use that excuse. But the majority of Jews throughout the world had no part in that either so it's stupid to blame them.
The problem, as I see it, is banks. No war can be fought in modern times without financial support. It is the work of a few minutes and a few keyboard clicks to starve Hamas, or Russia, or Somalia, or Columbia or whoever of their finances but too many people have vested interests in the current monetary system to do anything about it. War is business and business is good.