Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13304895/Met-Police-arrest-Palestine-Israel-march-London-protest-Gaza.html

I think in a democracy this is absolutely necessary. Obviously policing will be important but it is good to see that in terms of street protest this is not a come sided issue.

I wonder how many are going to be arrested losing their rag seeing Israeli flags an masse after getting themselves riled up calling for a ceasefire.....

The more the anti-Israel protests go on the more I think those who disagree should stay away, just shrug and say “what you see is what you get”: it’s quite obvious that these incessant marches are just cover for antisemites. Support for Iran and the Houthis gives the game away, were there any real doubt in the first place.

It’s also evident from the fixated anti-Israel movement that persists whatever the political situation is in Israel.

@Dulra is there documented evidence to show the majority of Israelis support the campaign in Gaza? I'm just curious to know for sure.

I can't find a recent poll (last one I can find was in Feb) but I heard it on a BBC news report a couple of weeks ago which was covering protests in Tel Aviv at the Netanyahu government and they reported that Israelis are unhappy with domestic issues but they do fully support their military campaign and the IDF

This

“I heard it on the BBC” is not an adequate explanation or justification for presenting confirmation bias as fact without any tangible evidence.

That's fine if you don't believe it, I know what I heard on the BBC and I know it was accurate. I don't know how often people in Israel are polled on this, the latest I can find was in Feb but I would love to see evidence to suggest Israelis no longer support the military campaign or a ground offensive in Rafah and I would feel very encouraged by that.
I am not sure why you see it as confirmation bias, it isn't new evidence it has been pretty much a given since the beginning of the conflict that Israelis unanimously supported it and I don't know why you would see me as having a bias towards that information and presenting or interpreting it in a way that suits a bias narrative? It isn't really something that can be interpreted any other way but as I said I am happy to be corrected on that if you find alternative evidence to what I have seen and heard.

Do you have any reason to believe thinking has changed since mid February when 68% of Jewish Israelis opposed humanitarian aid being delivered to starving people? Or that the 55% of Jewish Israelis who oppose a political political agreement to end the war have changed their mind? Mid Febuary isn't that long ago and the polling has been pretty consistent since the conflict began, why would you believe there has been a sudden about turn?

Did your/the BBC’s evidence come from a survey? Commissioned by whom? What mode and method was used?

Confirmation bias comes into play when vague generalised questions are asked because conclusions can then be interpreted and reported according to bias or agenda. Maybe take a look at the thread about the Henry Jackson Society’s recent survey, it dissects this subject really well.

Asking a group of Israelis if they support the IDF is a loaded question as so many Israelis might currently be in, will have been in or have friends and family in the IDF- it’s different to asking if they support the IDF’s actions or methods. Asking a group of Israelis if they support taking military action to remove Hamas from Gaza or prevent further terrorist incursions into Israel is not the same as asking if they fully support ‘their’ military campaign or its terrible toll on Gazans.

I’d also love to see some verified evidence of what exactly it is Israelis unanimously support. I don’t have any alternative evidence and you haven’t provided any evidence at all, just a personal generalised judgement as fact.

ETA responding to @Dulra

Good grief

Fine I'm wrong you're right the majority of Israelis don't support the military response in Gaza. I will take up your points with the BBC and make sure they are more thorough with their reporting in the future. Do you interrogate every political poll like this?

If they don't support the current military action in Gaza what do they support?

I guess this applies also to x time ago x number (majority) of Palestinian people supported Hamas.

I don’t have any alternative evidence and you haven’t provided any evidence at all, just a personal generalised judgement as fact.
@25milesfromhome There was no personal judgement as I said I was reporting on something I had heard and I have not seen any evidence to the contrary. You are not happy with and don't trust my source so let's leave it there. I was not judging anyone in my original comment so don't claim I was.

Maybe it does 🤷🏻‍♀️ I mean if 68% of Jewish Israelis want to withold aid to starving people it wouldn't be shocking if Palestinians look to the only people they feel can protect them would it? Imagine how you would feel if your occupiers wanted to starve you and have the means to do so. It must be a pretty terrifying position to be in.

Educate me on how 68% and 55% equals unanimous support? Or maybe link to this poll that shows Israelis’ full and unequivocal support for the military campaign and the IDF as that’s what I was discussing with @Dulra.

What motivated your decision to jump in with unconnected poll results about Jewish Israelis specifically? As @Dulra ’s post was just about Israelis in general, as far as I understood it.

I looked up the poll Dulra mentioned from mid February. These results were in it. It is split Jewish Israelis and Arab Israelis. I didn't do the polling, the Israel Democracy Institute did.

I thought the results were interesting. They show a clear 'no mercy' way of thinking. They seem to get your back up though?

To clarify, I meant your own personal judgement on the matter, not that you were judging anyone in particular in your original comment.

I do wish the BBC would be more thorough in their reporting and I do tend to interrogate many polls quite ferociously because so many of them utilise inherently flawed and biased methodology and there’s no harm in asking questions about this.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m right, I’m saying it’s intensely frustrating when posters don’t provide adequate sources to qualify their statements. I wouldn’t have to ask you so many questions if you provided the evidence so I could see it for myself.

If they don't support the current military action in Gaza what do they support?

As ‘they” are not a homogenous single brain-celled entity, I’d imagine Israelis might support a variety of things, much like all the other multi-faceted human beings on this planet.

I think we need to be very careful about claiming “Most Palestinians think x about Hamas” or “Most Israelis think y about the Israeli government” because it paints an entire group in one colour and stops us from seeing the nuance and complexity.
When people are afraid and defensive ( ie when they are threatened with terrorism like 7/10 or being continually bombed as is happening in Gaza ) they will not criticise the government - whether Hamas or Netanyahu - because they have to unite over a more immediate and threatening enemy.
Those of us who are lucky enough not to be threatened by Hamas or by Israeli bombs need to be very careful about adding fuel to the fire . Support the victims - don’t add to the hate.

The results didn’t get my back up no, it was your unrelated interjection that was irritating.

You don’t mention that the IDI poll was also split by political orientation for the Israeli Jews. I think the further breakdown of the results according to this is also very interesting- although only 19% of right wing Israeli Jews supported the transfer of humanitarian aid, 59% of left wing Israeli Jews supported it, along with 44% of centre Israeli Jews.

On the question of a political agreement to end the war, the full question being ‘Would you support or oppose an agreement to end the war which includes the release of all the hostages, long-term military quiet with guarantees from the United States, and a peace agreement with Saudi Arabia, in return for the release by Israel of large numbers of Palestinian prisoners, an extended ceasefire, and agreement to the establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state in the long term?” only 22% of right wing Israeli Jews supported it but 74% of left wing Israeli Jews (not far from the 77% of Israeli Arabs in support) and 56% of centre Israeli Jews supported it.

I wonder what motivated your decision to interpret and present these poll results as showing a clear “no mercy” way of thinking from a majority of Israeli Jews?

I’d suggest you examine your own bias and the language you use to transmit it.

The IDI - who did the polling- themselves used the term «majority » to describe extent of opposition within Israel to supplying aid to Gazans.

« We asked our respondents for their opinion regarding the idea that Israel should allow the transfer of humanitarian aid to Gaza residents at this time, via international bodies that are not linked to Hamas or to UNRWA. A majority of Jewish respondents (68%) oppose the transfer of humanitarian aid even under these conditions, while a large majority of Arab respondents support it (85%). »

Looking at their data - when adjusted to represent general population - 58% oppose transfer of Humanitarian aid.

Left wing Israeli’s were the only group to show a majority supporting transfer of Humanitarian aid - but in a survey in 2022, around 10% identified as left wing, a result also represented in free fall of support for left wing parties in the 2022 election.

It would be therefore correct to say majority of Israelis oppose transfer of humanitarian aid to starving Gazans.

@25milesfromhome I wonder what kind of bias too.......

I wonder what the response in the UK would be if we were asked whether we supported sending aid to a country that had recently perpetrated a horrendous terrorist attack against us and was continually firing rockets against us?

I mean, it's easy from the comfort of our sofas to assert that Hamas are an entirely disconnected entity from Gaza, floating over it firing rockets and being terrorists while the people on the ground starve, but it's probably more difficult when it's you they're shooting at.

I'm not sure we can sit in moral judgement there.

Are you well? Your posts are very odd.

I don't support the Israel government, by the way. Stating this has become a tedious ritual on these threads. Performative denunciation before being able to speak.

Right but it's still the majority that favours witholding aid from starving people though? What motivated me to interpret them the way I did is that clearly the majority think that way. In what world is 68% not the majority?

We all know Israel has a far right government and that there has been a rise in the right wing there, especially among the youth where 73% descibe themselves are right wing. That has been clearly documented for at least 5 years now. We also know that there are clearly some people who left wing. But that doesn't change the poll results that the majority of Israeli Jews want to withold aid, even if UNWRA aren't involved and even if the aid agencies have nothing to do with Hamas.

It must be incredibly frustrating for those who are left wing to see that become the majority thinking especially among the youth who are the future of a country, I know when we have far right idiots do stupid things here I cringe and think you don't represent me but that still doesn't change the poll results that show a clear majority favouring witholding aid.

I see we're back to accusing UK Mumsnetters of being part of "Hasbara".

You do realise every government (and indeed, terrorist organisation) has its form of Hasbara right? It just has another name?

I’m not sure why Hasbara gets dragged out like some kind of debate winning point, ‘yeah, but, Hasbara’, so facile.

You notice that no one accuses pro-Palestine posters of Hamas ‘Hasbara’ spreading shills, or Iran (other proxies are available) backed shills?