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Conflict in the Middle East

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Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time

673 replies

mids2019 · 13/04/2024 21:05

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13304895/Met-Police-arrest-Palestine-Israel-march-London-protest-Gaza.html

I think in a democracy this is absolutely necessary. Obviously policing will be important but it is good to see that in terms of street protest this is not a come sided issue.

I wonder how many are going to be arrested losing their rag seeing Israeli flags an masse after getting themselves riled up calling for a ceasefire.....

Met arrest nine as Palestine and Israel protesters march in London

The Met Police has today arrested nine people as thousands of pro-Palestine activists and Israel supporting counter protesters marched through London amid the ongoing conflict in Gaza.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13304895/Met-Police-arrest-Palestine-Israel-march-London-protest-Gaza.html

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24
Eldermoon · 28/04/2024 19:59

Dulra · 28/04/2024 19:36

Do you also have relatives' direct experiences of what it was like to live as Jews in the area during that period that you'd like to contribute?
Obviously not, don't be daft. Your post just read so negatively about Palestinians

Incorrect, my post read so negatively about something my Jewish relatives living in the area in experienced during that time with regard to how the term Palestinian was used for and against Jews, and how the definition and identity of Palestinians have shifted over time.

1dayatatime · 28/04/2024 20:04

So given that there appears to be no single agreed upon definition of Zionism where does that leave the often quoted "I'm not anti semetic just anti Zionist" ?

Limesodaagain · 28/04/2024 20:05

I think the question about what is Zionism is fair one. I think @Elladisenchanted gave a helpful response about what Zionism means for her.
My understanding is that it is about the Jewish longing for a homeland and the determination to protect it.
I think the Palestinians also have a longing for a homeland and a determination to protect it.
I think we all have that longing and that determination. It’s part of being human.
It’s absolutely ok for Zionists to treasure and defend their homes and homeland.
It’s not ok if Zionism becomes aggressive and overrides the boundaries and other people’s rights. Obviously.
I often think I’m a bit of a simpleton on these threads because I don’t understand so much of the complexity. But then I remind myself that you don’t need to be clever or well informed to know the difference between right and wrong.
Muslims, Jews and Christians all believe that rape, murder and theft are wrong. We all know there are victims on both sides and wrong doers on both sides.

Auvergne63 · 28/04/2024 20:12

Kendodd · 28/04/2024 19:48

Well from reading the posts since this one, zionist seems to mean whatever people want it to mean. Everyone has their own personal version and only their version is right.

Absolutely! That is where the problem lies I believe.

BibiSuzanne · 28/04/2024 20:12

Lovely post Limesoda

1dayatatime · 28/04/2024 20:14

@Limesodaagain

"It’s absolutely ok for Zionists to treasure and defend their homes and homeland.
It’s not ok if Zionism becomes aggressive and overrides the boundaries and other people’s rights. Obviously. "

I absolutely agree with your above comment however without any agreed upon definition when someone states that they are anti Zionist how do we know what exactly they are anti?

Limesodaagain · 28/04/2024 20:27

1dayatatime · 28/04/2024 20:14

@Limesodaagain

"It’s absolutely ok for Zionists to treasure and defend their homes and homeland.
It’s not ok if Zionism becomes aggressive and overrides the boundaries and other people’s rights. Obviously. "

I absolutely agree with your above comment however without any agreed upon definition when someone states that they are anti Zionist how do we know what exactly they are anti?

I think it’s better not to say you’re anti Zionist because there are many people who identify as Zionists but don’t approve of Netanyahu’s aggressive version of Zionism so saying you’re anti Zionist can be interpreted as being anti Israeli. I think it’s better to focus the criticism on Netanyahu’s government’s support for the aggressive action of settlers and their racist attitudes toward Palestinians. That’s my view - but I’m not Jewish or Israeli or Palestinian.

PeasfullPerson · 28/04/2024 20:45

Limesodaagain · 28/04/2024 19:39

I think Israelis feel under threat ( with verygood reason obviously). Palestinians also felt under threat but the threat they faced has now become a hellish reality.
We are fortunate not to feel threatened in this country but we all need to work hard to make sure it remains that way for us all. When people feel threatened they vote for extremist “ hard men” types ( Netanyahu/ Hamas) . I don’t want anyone here feeling threatened and creating the polarisation we see in other countries.
( I honestly think that some men are not very good at overcoming their caveman testosterone response to threat and I wish women - particularly mothers who are invested into the next generation- had more of a say . Perhaps I’m being naive though- I know many women can be as aggressive and racist as men . )

I agree with this.

Also, some groups strategically use fear to retain or increase their popularity/power within their chosen in group.

Lets remember that this division actually serves some people, and those people it serves aren’t normally the general public, regardless of whether they are ‘in’ or ‘out’.

noblegiraffe · 28/04/2024 20:56

I think it’s better not to say you’re anti Zionist because there are many people who identify as Zionists but don’t approve of Netanyahu’s aggressive version of Zionism so saying you’re anti Zionist can be interpreted as being anti Israeli.

Zionist is also used as a code word for Jew by antisemites, e.g. they'll spout the usual antisemitic conspiracy theories about Jews secretly ruling the world, but substitute Jew for Zionist and pretend that they don't mean Jew. I agree it's probably best to avoid condemning 'Zionists' and just stick to condemning the Israeli government.

Scirocco · 28/04/2024 21:21

Limesodaagain · 28/04/2024 20:27

I think it’s better not to say you’re anti Zionist because there are many people who identify as Zionists but don’t approve of Netanyahu’s aggressive version of Zionism so saying you’re anti Zionist can be interpreted as being anti Israeli. I think it’s better to focus the criticism on Netanyahu’s government’s support for the aggressive action of settlers and their racist attitudes toward Palestinians. That’s my view - but I’m not Jewish or Israeli or Palestinian.

At events, I've spoken with a few people who were announcing themselves as 'Anti-Zionist' and made signs proclaiming that - the majority of them didn't hate Jews or want the destruction of Israel, but instead opposed Netanyahu's aggressive policies, occupation and the 'settler' movement. Most people changed their signs or how they were expressing their views when they realised how their words could hurt innocent people.

noblegiraffe · 28/04/2024 21:30

@Scirocco can you get involved with organising the London marches because that sort of thoughtful consideration seems to be missing there.

the majority of them didn't hate Jews or want the destruction of Israel

There's an inevitable conclusion there... what do you do in that situation??

TheKeenAmberHedgehog · 28/04/2024 21:55

KestrelMoon · 28/04/2024 17:21

I can give you a few excerpts from this book I recommended earlier
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36645450-palestine
it is a 386 page book (excepting the bibliography) published by the University of Edinburgh.

p60
“In seven known Assyrian clay tablet and cuneiform inscriptions….the Assyrians called the region connected with modern Palestine ‘Palashtu’, ‘Palastu’ or ‘Pilistu’, and called the people who lived in this region Palestinians: ‘pa-la-as-ta-a-a’ beginning with…Adad-Nirari III (from 811 BC to 783 BC)…to Esarhaddon (…681-669 BC).”

“The text of the Sana’a Stele,…:
I subdued from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon, the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palastu, as far as the great sea of the setting Sun. I imposed tax and tribute on them.”

“The Palestinians are also mentioned in the Nimrud Letters..dated c. 735 BC:
“….I spoke to them in these terms:’Bring down lumber, do your work on it, do not deliver it to the Egyptians or Palestinians or I shall not let you go up in the mountains.”

P69- when coinage was invented…
“…Palestinian currency struck in Gaza from 538 BC until the occupation of Palestine by Alexander the Great in 332 BC….”

P71
“Palestine was the name used most commonly, consistently and continuously for over 1200 years throughout classical and Late Antiquity, from ….500 BC…until the occupation of Palestine by the Muslim armies in 637-638 AD.”

First up is Herodotus (c. 484-425 BC) used Palaistine to refer to Palestine. He distinguishes them from Syrians and Phoenicians. “Herodotus, who travelled widely in Palestine and Syria and beyond the coastal region, does not mention Judaea or refer to Jews. He does not mention such terms as Cana’an or Canaanites or Israelites in Palestine; nor does he describe monotheism in the country. First as archaeological evidence shows, monotheism was a much later development in Palestine and the Near East (Masalha 2007)…”(p76)

It goes on through history, dozens of examples including examples of famous Jewish scholars in Jerusalem like Josephus ( c. 25 BC to 50 AD ) referring to themselves as Palestinians and the country as Palestine.

These sources say something different regarding Josephus.

https://www.tarb.co.il/the-distortion-of-palestine/ "But when Josephus does mention Palestine, he is referring to the coastal region; he uses the term Judaea much more frequently, a fact which—predictably—Masalha elides."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23508170 " Jewish writers, notably Philo and Josephus, with few exceptions refer to the land as Judaea, reserving the name Palestine for the coastal area occupied by the Philistines. "

This source is interesting too:

https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/09/08/clarifying-the-palestine-saga/

The Distortion of Palestine - Tel Aviv Review of Books

One principle seems to be guiding "Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History" by nur masalha: The minimization and marginalization of the role Jews played in the history of Palestine.

https://www.tarb.co.il/the-distortion-of-palestine

Scirocco · 28/04/2024 22:22

noblegiraffe · 28/04/2024 21:30

@Scirocco can you get involved with organising the London marches because that sort of thoughtful consideration seems to be missing there.

the majority of them didn't hate Jews or want the destruction of Israel

There's an inevitable conclusion there... what do you do in that situation??

Yep, in protests/events, sometimes you meet people who hold views with which you disagree and some which you may even find personally offensive. I suppose there's a few options for how to manage that, and different people will have different approaches.

In an 'all under one banner' approach, it can be a bit easier to enforce if you have pre-agreed sign and speech content or themes - that way you can say to people that they need to stick to those pre-agreed things and avoid going 'off-message'. That works fairly well at smaller events where you might have sign-making sessions and other preparations being done as a group, for early intervention - which could range from a tactful chat through to a "well, that sign can f*ck right off".

In my experience of working with people who hold prejudiced or extreme or otherwise hate-filled views, those views often have their roots in a person's own experiences of life and are often not consistent or reasoned (because hatred isn't). If someone isn't posing an imminent risk of harm or serious offence to others, then engaging them in a discussion to explore why they feel that way can sometimes help lead people to question their own views. It might not change a person there and then, but sometimes you see people a few weeks or months later and they have changed their views. Sometimes, though, all you can do is tell someone you're disgusted by their views and don't want to hear or see it anywhere near you, and ideally you'd rather they went home and took their bigotry with them.

If someone is insistent that they're going to carry an offensive sign or otherwise cause a risk of disruption or harm, then the 'official' advice is that it's a police issue once they start causing a public order concern, so to report it to officers rather than getting into further confrontation with someone who is clearly looking to offend or provoke a reaction. However, that doesn't tackle the issue of the potential for distress and harm from their signs, speech and conduct prior to removal. So, what would happen with us would be messages sent out to the online groups being used to coordinate people attending, so that people would have the choice to attend or not - eg "The Fascists are under the bridge again" - and we'd think about how to keep them away from anyone potentially vulnerable prior to them being removed - eg arranging for certain groups to have assembly points further away from them. Not foolproof, I'm sure we've got it wrong many times, but we've tried and we've tried to take feedback on board from when we've got things wrong.

TheKeenAmberHedgehog · 28/04/2024 22:24

I found this article here that reported that:
"Some protesters on the counter-march reported being subject to antisemitic abuse as the marches crossed paths.
Reverend Hayley Ace who was on the Enough is Enough counter-protest, was misidentified as a Jew while wearing a Star of David cap and was told to 'F* off to Poland', the Campaign Against Antisemitism reported.
Reverend Ace said: 'Obviously Poland is where the Nazis built most of their concentration camps for the extermination of Jews. Comments like those that I received are common on these marches. How can anyone pretend they are peaceful."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13356891/Pro-Palestinian-protesters-streets-London-Met-Police-admits-Jewish-people-forced-avoid-Tube-hide-identities-demo-days.html

Gaza protesters arrested for racism and sign comparing Israel to Nazis

'Hundreds of thousands' marched through the streets of London in a series of protests today, some in support of a ceasefire in Gaza and others to call for an end to anti-Semitism.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13356891/Pro-Palestinian-protesters-streets-London-Met-Police-admits-Jewish-people-forced-avoid-Tube-hide-identities-demo-days.html

Scirocco · 28/04/2024 22:32

@noblegiraffe there have been situations in which I've had to swallow my pride and work with frankly horrible people in order to get the job done and save lives, for the greater good. I've worked with people who have been openly Islamophobic, who have been racist against my own ethnicity, who have held what were to me abhorrent views on things. But I'm not going to stand next to someone spouting hatred of any sort and let it go unchallenged. Just as I would hope people would challenge me if I were to express something bigoted (I don't think I'm a particularly bigoted person but then probably nobody wants to think of themselves as bigoted) - people can only reflect and change if they realise there's a need to reflect and change.

noblegiraffe · 28/04/2024 23:13

I've worked with people who have been openly Islamophobic, who have been racist against my own ethnicity, who have held what were to me abhorrent views on things.

I'm sorry to hear that, and it must have been very difficult. Do you mean in a professional capacity? (I'm not sure what you do, I would hope not as colleagues?)

Thank you for your detailed response about dealing with offensive protestors. I do wish that this approach was taken in London, it would have solved a lot of the issues we are seeing. I saw a video of Norman Finkelstein at one of the university protests in the US saying that they should reconsider using the slogan 'From the river to the sea' because it can be misinterpreted, and the woman straight after him took the microphone and led a loud chant of From the river to the sea, as an 'up yours' to that suggestion. I think some people don't care about causing hurt, and some do it on purpose. I put the organisers of the London marches in that category, particularly after they deliberately projected that slogan on the Houses of Parliament.

noblegiraffe · 28/04/2024 23:16

From that article this is a good example of using 'Zionist' as a code word for Jew.

There's a long-standing conspiracy theory about Jews controlling the media, and governments. This sign simply switches Jews for Zionists.

Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time
Limesodaagain · 28/04/2024 23:33

I’m really grateful for @Scirocco ’s contribution. I think she is doing so much to break down barriers and advocate for her community. We need more people like her from both sides.

Scirocco · 28/04/2024 23:55

@noblegiraffe I work in healthcare and have done work with various humanitarian and disaster relief projects. Sometimes that involves relying on other countries' armed forces and/or private security, working alongside hostile organisations and people, etc.

noblegiraffe · 29/04/2024 00:19

Blimey. Hats off to you.

stomachamelon · 29/04/2024 07:42

@noblegiraffe I don't think many students actually respect or have any idea of what is happening or the opinion of people with skin in the game. For example.

Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time
Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time
noblegiraffe · 29/04/2024 12:16

There is definitely something odd about those protests. There does appear to have been some radicalisation of those young people to be coming out with that sort of rhetoric. If they were in the U.K. we’d be referring them to Prevent.

BabaBarrio · 30/04/2024 00:07

TheKeenAmberHedgehog · 28/04/2024 21:55

These sources say something different regarding Josephus.

https://www.tarb.co.il/the-distortion-of-palestine/ "But when Josephus does mention Palestine, he is referring to the coastal region; he uses the term Judaea much more frequently, a fact which—predictably—Masalha elides."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23508170 " Jewish writers, notably Philo and Josephus, with few exceptions refer to the land as Judaea, reserving the name Palestine for the coastal area occupied by the Philistines. "

This source is interesting too:

https://www.algemeiner.com/2019/09/08/clarifying-the-palestine-saga/

ive

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