Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13304895/Met-Police-arrest-Palestine-Israel-march-London-protest-Gaza.html

I think in a democracy this is absolutely necessary. Obviously policing will be important but it is good to see that in terms of street protest this is not a come sided issue.

I wonder how many are going to be arrested losing their rag seeing Israeli flags an masse after getting themselves riled up calling for a ceasefire.....

There is no state of Palestine. There are proposals for a state but there needs to be agreement on borders that is workable .
Brining in arguments that delegitimise Israel as a state will not help as Israel is here to stay. The frustration of some about historical events will only be challenged into sporadic acts of violence like October 7th

We will have peacemakers eventually but here is a spoiler - Hamas will not be involved You need Palestinian representatives that accept Israel is a state and there must be some sort of peaceable living arrangement or we go round in circles.

The representatives will therefore come from a group other than Hamas

I agree Hamas cannot be involved in the negotiations for peace but the current Israeli government has not shown they are willing to treat the Palestinians with fairness so they should not be part of the process towards peace. We need moderates from both sides .

There is no state of Palestine
You can't say that. There are disputes but the state of Palestine is an officially recognised state by the united nations and numerous other countries. You and other nations may not recognise it but just as many do so to say it isn't a state is just one side of the dispute

The representatives will therefore come from a group other than Hamas
I think this is a given

Your latter two paragraphs appear to suggest that people here would want or expect Hamas to be involved. Here is a spoiler - most reasonable people don't actually like Hamas very much and would not want them to have any role in a Palestinian government.

Hamas have stated that they will recognise the 1967 borders.

The question is, will Israel?

If you're talking about their charter, Hamas want a Palestinian state but will not recognise an Israeli one.

Everyone has the right to free movement and speech within reason. If there was a large pro-Zionist march taking place and I'm a woman wearing a headscarf or look visibly Muslim or feel compelled to wear a keffiyeh or Arabic garb, then whilst 'free' to walk into or alongside the march, stare and film protesters, I would unlikely choose to put myself in that potentially high risk situation. Unless I had the intention to provoke. Having said that I've marched on the pro-Pal protests with friends wearing kippahs-- when they fell behind the Jewish block- and there was only appreciation expressed. People thanked those who looked visibly jewish, shook hands/ hugged etc maybe appreciating the risks taken to protest (with their own community and sometimes families). Also, the stance, gaze/ eye contact, non-verbal body language all matters too, not just attire.

Hamas said they would take 67 borders as a starting point, but that they would never accept Israel - ie they will use 67 borders as a better vantage point to attack Israel from. Israel unsurprisingly aren't keen on that.

Have they specifically stated that they will continue to attack Israel from 1967 borders? Genuine question because from what I have read they have said that they will accept 1967 borders without recognising Israel but recognising a state exists beyond their borders.

They also stated their conflict was not with Judaism but with Zionism.

Either way bombing civilians is not the answer. Negotiations within the framework of international law is.

They also stated their conflict was not with Judaism but with Zionism.

If you're willing to believe that Hamas aren't antisemitic, I've got a bridge I can sell you.

That's why the October 7th attackers phoned their mums to brag about killing zionists.

Oh wait thats not right...

And IDF soldiers posted videos of themselves laughing at bombing and humiliating Palestinians. Are you saying that all IDF soldiers are Islamophobes?

I think we can all agree that some men do disgusting things in wartime. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t look at the underlying causes of the problem and do our best to de-escalate the violence.

Tell me what you think the underlying cause of the conflict is?

Is there evidence of this? I have seen some footage of Hamas but I haven’t seen any of the terrorists chatting away on mobile phones to their mums.

In fact, the survivor accounts from the kibbutzim stated that the Hamas terrorists used landlines or hostage phones to call authorities to negotiate safe passage back to Gaza because they’d left theirs in Gaza as Israeli intelligence would have gotten hundreds of geolocation tracking alerts of Gazan mobiles massing behind the border wall and then moving into Israel not via checkpoints during their predawn attack, ruining the surprise.

This was definitely the case for kibbutz Be’eri.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/middle-east/killed-10-with-my-own-hands-hamas-terrorist-boasts-of-killing-jews-in-chilling-phone-call/articleshow/104686543.cms

If a group of people attack raped kidnapped and killed Muslims in their own homes and then phoned their parents to brag about how many Muslims they killed then I'd think they were probably islamophobic.

@KestrelMoon I thought that fact was well known.

No, I did not know it was a verifiable fact. I don’t read Times of India. I have heard it a few times and thought I would ask where that information has come from.

Thank you to @resouply for posting the link.

It checks out too compared to the survivor and eyewitness account about them not bringing their own mobiles because the article said the attacker used one of his victim’s phones to contact his parents:
”In the phone recording, the terrorist, whose identity remains undisclosed, is heard using a phone he took from a woman he had killed at Mefalsim…”

@KestrelMoon it was all over the news at the time due to the violence of the act and the fact the terrorists mother was spurring him on to commit more atrocities. I believe she asked him ' how many he had got'
Not just in 'times of India'

Was it? Do you have links to it being “all over the news” in a verified context and not in a ‘40 beheaded babies’ or ‘baby baked in oven’ way? There was so much hearsay in the news in the immediate aftermath of October 7th as to specific atrocities by Hamas that even though world leaders repeated them, they were later disproven such that I am not as trusting as I used to be.

The recording is out there if you want to listen to it. It was played to the UN Security Council on 23rd October.

@noblegiraffe thank you.

I've come to check for updates but it seems the latest consensus is nonsensical. To summarise what I'm reading: an armed terror group (hamas) escaped their imprisoned enclave to terrorise (as such a group is expected to do), so the state (recognised and accepted globally) decides to terrorise said imprisoned civilian population, this continuing the slaughter en masse, on a genocide scale. Civilian led protests errupt across the globe, as well as increasing condemnation towards both terror group and terror state. Latter state decides it needs more people to support its killings of civilians, so 'supports' (read: pays) influencers and counter protests. And here, we have people posting to say idf are as bad as Hamas and viceversa. Meanwhile, a genocide is taking place. I've had enough and checking out of this odd thread. When my children ask me what I did to try and stop entire families being wiped out, churches and mosques bombed, children killed by snipers as they chase after flour, universities and hospitals obliterated... I don't want to say I typed some message responses to strangers who felt inconvenienced by mass protests, disrespected by words or wanted to equalise those defending genocide to march alongside those objecting to it. Shalom and may God forgive us all.

This isn't Flouncers' corner.

No it’s the UK, a place where we are meant to welcome people of all religions and believe in free speech.

@PeasfullPerson https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/flouncers_corner