Israel supporting counter marches in London - about time

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13304895/Met-Police-arrest-Palestine-Israel-march-London-protest-Gaza.html

I think in a democracy this is absolutely necessary. Obviously policing will be important but it is good to see that in terms of street protest this is not a come sided issue.

I wonder how many are going to be arrested losing their rag seeing Israeli flags an masse after getting themselves riled up calling for a ceasefire.....

I didn't realise there is an actual flouncers corner on here!

Israelis are also holding ceasefire marches, like this one done by Rabbis for Ceasefire. They tried to deliver aid to Gaza and got arrested. Funny how protesters blocking aid were allowed to set up tents and camp out. Seems that Israeli police have orders on which sort of protester is untouchable and which is arrestable.

There have been many, the largest had tens of thousands of Israelis protesting for a ceasefire.
“JERUSALEM (AP) — Tens of thousands of Israelis thronged central Jerusalem on Sunday in the largest anti-government protest since the country went to war in October. Protesters urged the government to reach a cease-fire deal to free dozens of hostages held in Gaza by Hamas militants and to hold early elections.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-03-31-2024-2dfbc154409ae6160b4e594b1b346e13

photos
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-03-31-2024-2dfbc154409ae6160b4e594b1b346e13

The Palestinians have been there for millennia. They have been called Palestinians since the Bronze Age. There is propaganda claiming that every Palestinian that converted to Christianity or Islam is a lately come immigrant..and by “lately” as in 2,000yrs ago or 1,200yrs ago. If we say the Palestinians have no right to identify as Palestinians because their history on the land is “too recent”, then where does that leave most of those we are happy to identify as British? Or American? Or Australian? And so on?

@statsfun
This is the evidence for what I am saying about Palestinians and Palestine. This book was published by Edinburgh University Press, it has been fully peer reviewed for historical accuracy as with all University publications.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36645450-palestine

“For centuries, the land of Palestine has been fought over by competing faiths, nations and empires. Today, even the name itself has become a battleground for conflicting Israeli and Palestinian visions of the country's past. Israelis treat the very notion of 'Palestine' as a modern invention, while rooting their own nation's history in the ancient Kingdom of Israel. But, as Nur Masalha shows, the concept of Palestine (derived from the biblical 'Philistine') is one which can be traced to the beginning of recorded history, grounded in a distinctive Palestinian culture that long predates the Old Testament narrative of Israelite conquest. Beginning with the earliest references to the area in ancient texts, Masalha explores how the concept of Palestine and its associated identity has evolved over thousands of years, from the Bronze Age to the present day. Drawing on a rich body of sources and the latest archaeological evidence, Masalha shows how Palestine's past has been distorted and mythologised by Biblical lore and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. In the process, this magisterial work uncovers the true depth and complexity of Palestine's millennia-old heritage, and represents the authoritative account of the country's history.”

The author goes century by century, with references to archaeological inscriptions, cuneiform tablets, the writings of ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Persians and Romans all of which predate the Old Testament.

Part of me says it doesn’t matter who was there 2000 years ago. The Palestinians were there (and some of them Jewish) before the most recent mass immigration of Jews, when this current conflict started. They’ve been displaced within their family’s living memory, as have the Jews, which I think is the best measure.

But I did watch a video looking into the DNA of Palestinians which traced them back to the canaanites but didn’t look into it further because like I say I didn’t think it mattered. But I guess it’s good to know when others refute their claim to their land on those grounds, so thanks.

We have had posters on these threads insisting Palestinians are immigrants from Saudi, very recent immigrants with significant numbers born in Saudi and so have no claim on any land. I don't know how you get past this. I don't think any evidence could convince people who believed this otherwise. I agree with the other poster as well though, I don't think it really matters where people's parents or grandparents (or even less so ancient bloodlines) came from. It's the fact people live there now that's important and the oppression and violence people are suffering now.

I agree @Senzadubbidobbi and @Kendodd , it doesn’t matter except to refute those who insist that Zionists have a right to ethnically cleanse a region because they claim they were there thousands of years ago and whoever is there that is not Jewish has no right because Zionists believe all nonJewish ethnicities were not there then too. History shows they were all there- Pagan, Jewish, Christian, Muslim as the centuries rolled by and that Palestine and Palestinians are not a modern or even late Imperial Roman invention. The identity of the people and their region goes back to the Bronze Age. The religious mix changes as new religions emerged and were adopted and older religions were abandoned.

I thought this thread was about counter marches in London and about time that this happened?

Yes, I think this 'my ancestors were there first' is ridiculous. Especially when you consider the two sides will have had many of the same ancestors anyway.
I do have some sympathy for the Jewish people wanting a place just for them though. Given their recent (last hundred years) and historical past, I can understand they may fear non Jews turning on them. How to achieve this without purging another race of people from their home though, well... I don't see how that can be done. Even, as is largely the case in Israel, it is majority Jewish and Jewish controlled, I can't see it continuing into the future. Not for any sinister reason (although see that is a threat) but because of a combination of falling birth rates, marriage out (my family) and atheism (again, my family). Falling birth rates isn't just a threat to Judaism, loads of places are facing this though.

I haven’t made any of it up, it largely comes from the book I posted for you upthread. I am just now seeing your post in this. Tel Quasile had been inhabited by Palestinians since 3000 years ago. It hadn’t been a ruin for 3,000 years. It was depopulated in 1948.

That would be what statsfun is doing. I’m going by a peer reviewed history book published by Edinburgh University.

I didn’t “call” it that, it was in fact a Palestinian city that was inhabited from 3,000 years ago until 1948 when it was depopulated by the Haganah and violent settlers during the Nakba

Funny that stats fun picked a picture of the outside of Tel Qasile to pretend that is what Tel Aviv looked like when the same repository has other photos of 1948 Tel Qasile like this one
Here’s more photos of what Tel Aviv looked like right after depopulating it.
https://images.app.goo.gl/XbE91XZ4pTqZzvG99

Just sticking our noses in to remind everyone we think posters should be able to engage in political discourse, including criticism of governments and their policies. However, we do appreciate that this needs to remain within the boundaries of respectful and legitimate political debate.

We will remove any posts reported to us that employ stereotypes, invoke harmful conspiracy theories, or target Jewish people as a whole rather than focusing on specific policies, actions, or the Government. Please report anything like this if you see it on the boards.

You're getting a bit confused @KestrelMoon

Al-Shaykh Muwannis was a small Palestinian Arab village which emptied following Jewish militant aggression during the 1947-48 civil war.

Tel Qasile was a Philistine city. The Philistines being the 'sea people' who lived on the coast of what is now Israel, arriving around 10 BCE and disappearing about 6BCE when they were conquered by the Babylonians. I do agree that it's rather a nonsense to try to link a disappeared civilisation from 2500 years ago with any particular people now.

Tel Qasile was destroyed in the 10th century. Ie 1000 years ago. So blaming Israel for that and linking it to the WB is completely ridiculous.

Sorry, typo: the Philistines arrived around 10th century BCE (3000 years ago) and disappeared around 6th century BCE (2600 years ago)

@statsfun
@KestrelMoon

"Do you really think no one will verify the random stuff you make up?"

I just love this comment!😆

What about if they target Palestinian people as a whole?

Or whole groups of people protesting against the actions in Gaza?

Checking these comments will also be removed?

Or whole groups of people protesting against the actions in Gaza?

Hardly the same, is it. The equivalent of that would be anyone on any march or protest ever - not a protected characteristic.

I think this is MN's way of reminding people not to be antisemitic. It's unfortunate that some people need a reminder.

You say you use this to 'refute those who insist that Zionists have a right to ethnically cleanse a region because they claim they were there thousands of years ago and whoever is there that is not Jewish has no right because Zionists believe all nonJewish ethnicities were not there then too. '

I very definitely didn't say that either about ancient times or modern times.

I've mentioned that the Philistines (who came from southern Europe and then disappeared as a civilisation, killed and assimilated by the Babylonians) were there at the same time as the Israelites. There were many different peoples at different times, and huge amounts of population movement over the last 3000 years. It was an important and fertile area!

I have also many times said that in modern times, both Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs lived in the whole of the Palestinian mandate. I only see Palestinians seeking to exclude Jews from 'people who belong here', not the other way round. Israel has 20% Arab citizens.

I've certainly never said that the ancient history is the reason Israel should exist. It exists because both Jews and Arabs lived in the land in modern times, after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The land was partitioned according to the people who lived there: 20% was assigned for the Jews who made up 30% of the population. 80% was given to the Arabs who made up 70% of the population, including all of Transjordan (now Jordan) which it was specified no Jews should live in.

That was proposed because it seemed at the time that it was the only possible solution, given existing civil violence between the 2 groups. It may or may not have been the right approach, but I'm pretty certain any other approach would also have resulted in bloodshed. As it did in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon.

Partition was an approach taken in various areas of the world for areas which were coming out of colonial rule (the Ottoman empire in this case), where there was inter-communal friction which made a single country seem unsustainable. The Partition of India resulted in 1 million deaths and 10-20 million people displaced. It swamps the deaths and displacements in the Palestinian mandate because it's a far bigger population. Perhaps the big size helped in the end though, since despite remaining tension, 70 years on India and Pakistan are stable countries.

The Arabs never accepted the Partition of the Palestinian mandate lands. And the small area means that the ongoing violence can't be restricted to a border area but engulfs everything. I don't see a way to stability that way.

Are you trying to say it’s Ok to speak of people protesting against what’s happening in Gaza as a homogenous group who all share unacceptable views?

Or are you saying that it’s Ok to stereotype groups who don’t share a protected characteristic?

I’m missing the point of your comment.

No, I'm not saying it's OK. I'm saying there's a difference between causing offence and racist hate speech.

Responding to MN's reminder about antisemitism in the way that you did reminded me a lot of the "all lives matter" crowd.

Oh, and because the Arabs didn't accept the Partition plan, it then descended into civil war in 1947-48, and then additional wars after Israel declared independence.

Full-on war does change country boundaries.

People still held onto the Partition plan as a framework, but that didn't really work in a war where one side didn't accept the Partition and was trying to destroy the other, so Israel unilaterally re-drew the boundaries following wars. They periodically gave the WB and Gaza to various surrounding countries then took them back following yet more wars.

And now we are 70 years on, with a very different environment. But still no solution in sight.

The Jewish contingent didn’t accept the partition plan either. The Nakba started well before the partition was announced and Israel formally written into existence. Your entire post isn’t historically accurate. Israel never “gave WB and Gaza to various surrounding countries…” 😬