To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

so let’s be honest, what is the hate of Israel really about?

Do you want to say ‘antisemitism’? Go on. It’s an easy and now standard accusation made against people who are traumatised by the images coming out of Gaza right now.

So do Hamas represent Palestinians or not? We're told by governments they're terrorists and they've not allowed elections for years.

Hamas has no justification for the atrocities it committed in October last year.

To not like one side is somehow islamophobic, to not like the other is somehow antisemitic.

Why not simply acknowledge that this is nothing to do with us and ignore them all completely.

Are we really having a debate about whether the IRA were a better class or more more noble terrorist than Hamas? They murdered innocent people including children. Sometimes in bombs, sometimes shooting, sometimes with torture. They regularly kidnapped, tortured and maimed people sometimes over extensive periods of time. Children were sexually abused and this was covered up.
if Israel can justify what they are doing now the UK could have come up with similar grounds should they have wanted to. But internationally it wouldn’t have been accepted. And that is not because of some notion that the IRA weren’t that bad but that the Irish are white Europeans with strong links to the US and not Palestinian that no one gives a fuck about. That is my point.

Hamas are defined as terrorist because they are terrorists.

That’s absolutely delusional. Calling a war of defense in which there has been a low level of civilian casualties a “genocide” is utterly offensive to every group who actually has suffered a genocide. The Jewish people of course being one.

in the future these shameful lies will be seen for what they are.

There are numerous posters on this thread denying Hamas are terrorists.

I have spoken to people in real life who say the atrocities never happened.

We have all heard the words of those desperately trying to deny the rapes happened.

i have spoke. to people in real life who say that the Israeli’s ‘ have nothing to complain about for what happened to them’ ( on October 7th)

We have all seen the footage around the world of posters of hostages being torn down.

We have all heard the words of westerners celebrating the attacks and calling the Hamas terrorists freedom fighters. Not random nutters on the street, but academics and professionals saying this.

We have all seen time and time again people refusing to condemn Hamas but instead only condemning Israel.

It’s simply not true to claim everyone thinks Hamas are disgusting. If everyone did, there would not be the arguments on threads like this. People like me are distressed precisely because we see such widespread refusal to condemn Hamas or show sympathy for the Israeli victims.

And Germany. Germany are supplying a lot of arms to Israel.

"This will be taught in schools as genocide"

Will it bollocks?

Acts of genocide are acts which are committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the state of Israel are seeking to destroy Palestinians, as distinct from (1) Hamas, a terrorist organisation - recognised as such by the UK, EU and US and responsible for the atrocities of 7 October including taking over 100 people hostage and brutally raping innocent women; and (2) the consequence of the war that is being fought in Gaza, including civilian casualties.

Of course there is or the ICJ wouldn't be hearing the case and wouldn't have to order Israel not to starve people to death.

Not read through thread. My thoughts are I am not anti Israel, I have spent time there, there was much I liked - and aspects I didn’t. However, reading around the subject it seems to me that Israel for various reasons since even pre 1948 have been reluctant to allow Palestinians to create their own state and Netanyahu’s governments the last 20 years have gone further and clearly had no wish for this to happen suppressing Palestinians considerably. What Hamas did on Oct 7 was horrific but Netanyahu’s govt now in Gaza wish to achieve what he has longed hoped for destroying Palestinians future completely. IDF have bombed hospitals, universities, killed journalists, allowed mass civilian casualties and displaced 1.8 million people plus stemming the volume of aid getting in so the population are on the brink of starvation, certainly already malnourished.

Also you can’t separate the West Bank from Gaza in this situation. There is a strong argument that when Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005 they saw it as a way of separating Gaza and West Bank making it harder for a 2 state solution to happen along with the Jewish settlements in West Bank of course and ill treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank. Netanyahu has said he allowed Hamas to receive funding from other places as it kept Gaza and WB fractured. He thought he could control it, 7 October showed he didn’t. I can’t support what Israel is doing to the Gazan population, they are going further than just trying to destroy Hamas, a legitimate aim, it’s horrific.

Nobody should be supporting the actions of the state of Israel, they are carrying out genocide of the Palestinian people. Yes hamas are terrorists, their attacks were/are deplorable and they should be removed and held accountable but they didn't appear in a vacuum for no reason.

👏Agreed. Hamas have only one objective and that does not include caring about the lives of anyone - including their 'own' civilians and children in Gaza.

Saying there has been a ‘low level of civilian casualties’ is an appalling callous comment and says everything about the kind of person you are. If your child had been murdered by the IDF I imagine you would change your wording. Disgusting.

So terrorists have justifiable motivations?

This may be one of the craziest comments I’ve ever read.

It’s an utterly daft thing to say. As I’ve already pointed out, the IRA were never the government of Ireland and in fact were detained and prosecuted by the Irish state. the situation is not at all analogous.

How many Russians have been killed in the war against Ukraine? They’re white people. Why does no one protest against Ukraine? Why are the Russians the “baddies” globally?

Might it be because (like Hamas) they are the aggressors?

Why do either of them deserve our support? They're both vile.

Israel gets our support (on government level) as they're our allies but then so are Saudi Arabia.

It’s horrifying how so many people are showing their true colours over this. As a Jew I have started hiding my identity irl again (like my grandparents had to). Justifying Hamas and their atrocities is as inhuman as it gets.

I think at some level it is because Israel’s massacre of civilians is happening now.
What happened to those Israeli people in Oct was beyond disgusting. I don’t know how those families will ever recover.

But there has not been time to focus and process that, as Israel has been relentlessly killing Palestinians since. Gazan kids are dying as we type. That is why there is so much being written about Israel’s actions today. It doesn’t necessarily mean that people don’t care about the murdered Israelis or those poor hostages. Well not in my case anyway.

@measuringmylifeincoffeespoons , I deeply regret the suffering of innocent people however I agree with you 100%.

Israel is an ally who fights against Hamas (a terrorist group).

hamas have stated they will repeat the 7 October attacks until all Jews are dead. They are also a racist, sexist homophobic extremist violent terrorist organization that would happily spread their hate and violence globally.

Ok so it’s the fact Hamas are in government that is the difference then? Nationalist areas in the North regularly elected Sinn Fein MPs would an all out attack on those areas killing indiscriminately and blockading food water and medicine from entering have been justified?

There is no massacres of Gazan civilians. That’s simply not true.

I’m so sorry. You’re right, it is horrifying. I have read so so much on the Holocaust and the events surrounding it, and I’m appalled that so much is being repeated now. The Holocaust didn’t happen just because of the Nazi party. The Holocaust happened because every day normal men and women failed to condemn, and mindlessly yet actively participated in the mass destruction of Jews and other groups of people.

Nelson Mandela was classed as a terrorist.

Do you think his motivation of ending Apartheid wasn't justifiable?