To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

I think it’s in part to the fact that they all do military service. No-one wants to be the bad guy, the oppressor so they glorify their military while de-humanising the ‘enemy’.

Some of the things they came out with about the Palestinians- about ‘how’ they live in squalor, how dirty it is, how ‘uneducated’ they are etc etc was particularly shocking because they were completely unwilling to see how the Israeli occupation created the awful conditions Palestinians had to live in.
For the mum of this family, Palestinians didn’t become engineers,doctors, CEOs because of lack of money, schools, opportunity but because they were backwards, lazy people who spent all their time and energy plotting how to become terrorists instead.

Exactly, I'm not supporting Hamas or pretending they're aiding the Palestinian people. However, people are bringing up Hamas when people are.mentioning the horrific IDF attacks on innocent children when they are doing the same in the West Bank and have been for decades. Both sides are bad, but we can't pretend the IDF are bad "because of Hamas".

@Lampy123678

I guess Hamas could come out and fight soldier to soldier/armed adult to armed adult and stop hiding away. That's the way wars are usually fought by keeping women and children safe, not hiding away, in tunnels whilst children are above ground, in hospitals by patients. Cowards, the lot of them. I suggest they don't care for Palestinian children at all and see then as pawns to be used.

Or release hostages and lay down arms and allow a new governing authority take over Gaza. Do the best for Gaza, wouldn't that be grand. They won't do their best for their own people though. If as some suggest Israel didn't stop then all support would fall away immediately.

None of this will happen though, hamas will continue to hide, continue to fire missiles and not care. The leadership will continue in safety with their billions.

@Dulra Jeremy Bowen , Israel-Gaza briefing: Obstacles to peace seem larger than ever after six months of war www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68735869

I had a similar experience in Australia as well about 20 years ago! I met a fair few Israelis whilst travelling and their views shocked me too. On a side note, I was also unpleasantly surprised by how casually racist the Aussies were about many things; they couldn’t seem to reconcile the fact that I was English yet black! 🙄

So you just completely ignored my comment because you can't answer my question and keep your narrative at the same time. How does your suggestion stop snipers shooting children? They aren't mistaking them for militants. Why are they shooting civilians and children in the West Bank that isn't governed by Hamas? If Hamas militants hid in Israel would they continue to use these indiscriminate tactics or would they do specialised military operations to reduce harm to Israeli civilians or not?

https://inews.co.uk/news/world/israels-secret-lavender-ai-gaza-kill-lists-2989800

So they can kill in Libanon and Syria with high intelligent weapons and targeting directly at the people they want to get rid of but in Gaza they don’t have these weapons and target anything ?

are you happy they’re burying people alive with their tanks? Do you think by doing this they’ll make Hamas come out of their tunnels ?

I guess Hamas could come out and fight soldier to soldier/armed adult to armed adult and stop hiding away.

I'm not condoning Hamas in any way because I think they are monsters and do not care at all about civilian lives. But they cannot come out and fight soldier to soldier they haven't the numbers or weapon power of the IDF so their only option to match the IDFs military strength is through the tactics they're adopting.

I did answer your comment further up. The soldiers that targeted those children in your story need investigating, then charging so justice follows. I've no sympathy for a soldier that shoots an innocent child on purpose. If a child was caught in crossfire and not on purpose completely different to purposely targeted. It needs investigating to establish all facts, then if guilty justice by prison.

So again, Hamas accountability for hiding away and not fighting man to man and not bothered about Palestinian children. Does that not bother you at all?

Apparently there were around 30,000 hamas , and since lots on here claim mostly women and children have been killed then they could come out and fight man to man, that's a considerable number. Just hide away in tunnels whilst children die. They are cowards that launch attacks then hide.

Despite the fact that children are dying? That's very admirable of them. Shows they care more for their cause then their own women and children which are obviously expendable to them.

I have done business with Israeli Jewish people and I was absolutely shocked by a lot of their attitudes to Palestinians. Its a small sample to be fair but these were all educated people who worked at executive level and almost all of them of them (completely unprompted by me) seemed to view Palestinians as less than human and that any actions Israel took against them was justified and necessary.
This was a couple of years before the October attacks

Palestinians are generally have a higher level of education than Israelis.

Do you think Israel governments actions are protecting Israeli citizens ? Don’t you think they’re putting their own citizens in danger at the moment by attacking 4 countries at the same time?

Try reading my previous condemnation of idf soldiers who are accused in the story of shooting children. Why do you assume I'm happy with that. Strange that being anti hamas and suggesting they are cowards who don't care about their children makes you assume that I support any wrongs that have taken place. It is possible to be sad about innocent deaths of both Israeli and Palestinian people you know.

@AliceA2021 how do you square the idea of the IDF trying to mitigate harm to children with the information about AI systems reportedly targeting family homes and a systematic approach of targeting children and other civilians with sniper and drone attacks, or with the approach in the West Bank of shooting children who pose no realistic threat to the shooters?

Apparently this AI will listen for twenty seconds. If it hears a woman's voice it stops and refers the decision back to a human being.

If it hears a man's voice it fires.

Would the Israelis like that kind of system meted out to them?

No you didn't. You seem to dismissive or just blithely unaware of the scale of these attacks on children suggesting it's a small amount of rogue soldiers when it isn't or something that's happened only in the recent conflict. Why do you think there are so many soldiers doing this over the years if it's not military policy? If it is military policy and there's a lot of evidence and whistleblowers suggesting it is, would you support charges levied against Israel for unlawful actions?

Again, it's not only happening in areas governed by Hamas, so why are the IDF shooting children in the West Bank? When you can't blame Hamas for that, how do you explain it to yourself?

You also still completely keep ignoring my question about if these were Israeli casualties. By your logic, if Hamas were endangering Israeli children, would the IDF act as they have been or would they be more technical so as to kill the militants and save as many civilians as possible and if not would you be as dismissive of those deaths as collateral damage?

You keep saying 'the story' as if the article is referencing one event. Could you not bring yourself to read it in it's entirety? Especially this bit:
"Israeli and foreign human rights groups have documented a long history of snipers firing on unarmed Palestinians, including children, in Gaza and the West Bank"

This has been going on for ages. Why do you think that is?

“The tactics they are adopting” .. using Palestinian children as sacrificial lambs on the altar of their unholy cause .

And the IDF are no better

Or release hostages and lay down arms and allow a new governing authority take over Gaza. Do the best for Gaza, wouldn't that be grand. They won't do their best for their own people though. If as some suggest Israel didn't stop then all support would fall away immediately

I think this probably comes down to the fact that Hamas don't believe it would be better to lay down their arms and let someone else take over. If they do that then the status quo of Israel being the illegal occupier remains, the status quo of Israel controlling everything about Gaza remains. Gaza was under an illegal blockade by Israel prior to 7/10 and there is no reason for Hamas to believe that if they quit now Israel will say grand so, you control your own borders, you can decide if bring in hospital equipment or how much food you export or what your water system looks like. It would stop the immediate slaughter but then what? Same old, same old.

I think both Israel and Hamas should lay down their arms, the hostages should be released, the Palestinians that are being unjustly held by Israel should be released but let's not kid ourselves that that would be the 'end' of it. Israel have no intentions of ending their illegal occupation.

As I said I'm not condoning Hamas but their tactics are obviously to benefit them and their assualt on the IDF. They have no chance coming out man to man if they did have that manpower and military might they'd be pushing the IDF back into Israeli territory by now. I'd argue they are all cowards, Hamas hiding in buildings and tunnels the IDF hiding behind drones, while innocent children and civilians get thrown to the slaughter from both sides and their leaders the biggest cowards of them all.