To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

You say you've not seen any evidence. Have you just avoided reading the 500 or so documented statements by Israeli ministers, army generals etc that were given in evidence to the ICJ? Y'know like the ones where they use dehumanising language to describe everyone living in Gaza (not Hamas!) and suggested the aim is to "destroy everything in Gaza" (again not just destroy Hamas!) and saying "there are no innocent civilians in Gaza"?
Luckily for you the lawyers compiled all the statements together so you literally just have to look at the case against Israel to find them.

Yes, I have reviewed the ICC opinion. It does not find that Israel has engaged in genocide. It did not order a ceasefire. It finds that there is sufficient material that there should be a full trial to determine the allegations. That is very different from saying that there is evidence that the Israeli state has the specific intent of destroying the Palestinian people as opposed to defending itself against Hamas.

ICJ

@measuringmylifeincoffeespoons

The current military strategy is increasingly clearly ineffective. 6 months of fighting have resulted in: over 32,000 deaths, most of which are women and children; the near-complete obliteration of Gaza's infrastructure and essential services; over 70,000 injured, including major life-changing injuries. 6 months of fighting have resulted in: a handful of hostages returning home (most freed hostages have been freed through negotiations rather than combat); an unclear but small number of dead senior Hamas members; some damage to the tunnel networks. The methods used to achieve those objectives are sufficiently concerning that there are investigations into possible war crimes and even genocide. Have you heard about the reports of 'Where's Daddy?' ?

@measuringmylifeincoffeespoons

The current military strategy is increasingly clearly ineffective. 6 months of fighting have resulted in: over 32,000 deaths, most of which are women and children; the near-complete obliteration of Gaza's infrastructure and essential services; over 70,000 injured, including major life-changing injuries. 6 months of fighting have resulted in: a handful of hostages returning home (most freed hostages have been freed through negotiations rather than combat); an unclear but small number of dead senior Hamas members; some damage to the tunnel networks. The methods used to achieve those objectives are sufficiently concerning that there are investigations into possible war crimes and even genocide. Have you heard about the reports of 'Where's Daddy?' ?

OP, my view is that Hamas is 100% responsible for every single death in this conflict, both Israelis and Palestinians. They could not care less about their "own people". Taken from a gentleman that spoke in the IJC case, who works for the Israel intelligence, he grew up within a Hamas environment, was beaten up by them, pushed to follow their commands, eventually imprisoned by Israel for terrorist actions. He eventually liberated himself of Hamas' forcing hands and joined Israel. Hamas is a violent punishing bullying machine, to both Palestinians and Israelis. Though, Palestinians have to live with them.
I fully agree that Hamas needs to be excluded of any future solutions.

But.. though Israel has all rights and duty to defend itself, how can cutting electricity and water to millions of civilians, bombing hospitals, using excessive strength on bombs, displacing million of civilians, shooting aid and health workers fits into this? Israel is, justly in my view, being criticised for this. Particularly for the continous difficulties presented by Israel for the delivery of aid. Of that, they are appearing very much guilty, day after day, after day.

Hamas will not return the hostages to protect Palestinians from any further harm, because it is clear that they do not care about them.
Israel is not going to kill all Hamas members this way. They should have explored 100% of the tunnel infraestructure, just to check if they could find any hostage there. But how are they going to find the remainder of them amongst million of civilians living in makeshift accomodation? They cannot even identify a convoy of aid workers who have told them who they are, where they are and what they are doing. Same happened with the Red Crescent team going to rescue Hind. And many other aid workers and journalists. Even healthcare workers are bombed.
This horror needs to stop. People needs food, medicine and basic supplies. That includes the hostages.
A ceasefire, further aid deliveries, establishment of some order is what is needed. Start clearing up rubble.
That, in my eyes, is what will take power off Hamas. Organise police, health care, aid distribution, restore some order without Hamas.
Start talks on future. And I think this is crucial. No return to the previous situation. That would mean a repetition of all this over again. Two estates solution is the most favoured. Give the Palestinian people a future worth living and the majority of civilians will come around it. They need time to heal a bit, before they can choose a proper representation. Better for both Israelis and Palestinians to live alongside each other. Not easy. But why continue with the same strategy another 80 years?
And millions of people in the world are supporting this, or similar options, because they want sound and lasting peace for Israel and Palestine, and they deeply care about it. Not because we do not support Israel.
To me this is not a take a side thing. It is a enough is enough. Too many years of conflict, too many displaced people, killed, injured, badly treated, you name it, it happened.
I do pray that they will free the hostages. I do wonder if they are alive. They are Hamas only power left. Strategically, if things move on without Hamas involved, they may start to scatter and free them. This conflict fuels Hamas. It raises anger, makes people more vulnerable, so they can forcible recruit more and more fighters.
I wish all the best to all civilians.

It’s also very different from saying they categorically haven't provided evidence of intent. Again, we’re back to Israel intentionally blocking international visibility in Gaza.

If you’re so confident that they’re on the side of right here why do you suppose they won’t allow journalists into Gaza?

So you read that it didn't dismiss the case of genocide against Israel and that it found it plausible that Israel's acts could amount to genocide which is why they advised specific immediate preventative measures? If you have seen no evidence that Israel are carrying out genocidal acts, why did they do that? And if Israel continue to flout the preventative measures to prevent a genocide, would genocide not be the consequence of that?

No, not necessarily. Because genocide requires proof (amongst other things) of specific intent. The ICJ ruling did not say that the specific intent required was present. As I have explained, you need to distinguish between the right of self defence on the one hand nd genocide in the other.

I do not think that the Israeli government has got everything right. I don't support Netanyahu. I think Osrael would be better off without him for all sorts of reasons.

But I do t think the Israeli government is engaging in genocide and I do think they have the right to defend themselves against Hamas.

The point is that if Israel says that the destruction of Hamas is the only end to this war then they will, bit by bit, lose the support of their allies. Their allies may agree with the right to defend itself, but they will not go along with each step Israel declares appropriate to destroy Hamas and particularly not if it looks like in so doing, those countries may be breaking international law themselves.

Israel will have to find another objective. Because they do not want to be alone, whatever the hard face displayed for others.

It took 7 western aid workers to be murdered for the aid to finally come through! The only reason is because Biden had to intervene and threaten the withdrawal of arms. Time for Britain to withdraw arms to Israel. If Britain doesn't not then, as the legal bods have stated- Britain is complicit in war crimes.

Reported this disgusting post myself.

Apparently acceptable, on the grounds of “free speech” or something. Poor show @mnhq

Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war

You cannot just say that “that” as an indefinite, unspecified, possibly infinite number of deaths, “is what happens in war”.

The degree to which ”that” happens decides the degree to which the more powerful war wagers are ultimately culpable for having carried out a senseless massacre.

And, I do not really believe that if Hamas just handed over the hostages and surrendered the war would stop. It seems likely this present Israeli government and the IDF and settlers would carry on bulldozing, bombing, shooting, arresting, stealing land, harassing, blockading and surveilling the Palestinians, and try to block a two state solution.

Israel has admitted that their soldiers targeted and killed the aid workers (including the British former military personnel) despite the fact that the Israeli military knew exactly where those people were and who they were and had given them permission to be there.

This is the first time that Israel has been held to account for bombing aid workers. Their excuse is that their military personnel didn’t follow orders. That is not a defence. This isn’t the first incident. There is a pattern of aid workers being targeted. That breaks international law.

can you empathise with the mothers in Gaza?

I’ve stopped reading after your first paragraph. Do you only care about those 7aid workers? Not the 14k killed children? Not the 35k Palestinians? Only 7 aid workers ? 🤦🏻‍♀️

those killed in West Bank are they also because of Hamas ?

are the 200 Palestinian aid workers is what happens in war or a terrible tragedy ?

I do find these posts horribly polarising creating entrenched opinions and divisions within UK society (as if there isn't enough division already post Brexit, post Covid and with an election coming up.

If you sympathise with the Gazans then you will be labelled a Hamas / terrorist supporter and if you sympathise with Israel then you are labelled a genocide apologist. The entrenchment of opinions will only make it that much harder to understand the others side's viewpoint and therefore harder to reach a settlement.

It is an incredibly complex situation but not if you see it from only one perspective. For example a ceasefire now would mean that no more innocent Gazan civilians being killed but it would mean that Hamas stay in power and that they are publicly committed to killing more innocent Israelis. Alternatively if there is no ceasefire then this does halt further Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians but at the cost of more innocent Gazans.

A conflict in Gaza was the inevitable reaction by Israel to the 7th October attacks - I don't think any other country would have reacted differently. Secondly launching a ground invasion of one of the most densely populated parts of the world with one of the largest proportions of under 18s in the world was inevitably going to lead to very high civilian casualties and a high number of under 18 casualties.

My own opinion is that the strong opinions on both sides will turn off most UK voters who will
see it as "the too complex box" with sympathy for both sides and criticism of both sides. And like Ukraine is now dropping out of the headlines, Gaza will follow a similar "forgotten/ ignored/ too complex" conflict for the general public.

@1dayatatime
I agree it is incredibly complex but I don't fully agree with your predictions of what might happen which seem incredibly simplistic

For example a ceasefire now would mean that no more innocent Gazan civilians being killed but it would mean that Hamas stay in power and that they are publicly committed to killing more innocent Israelis.
A ceasefire and hostages being released will end the nightmare for Gazans and the hostages, please god they're still alive, but it does not mean Hamas stay in power. It is the start of negotiations and none of us can predict where it might go. The Hamas attack was about 2 years in the planning and yes it was horrific but it is highly unlikely Hamas will be able to repeat it so I think a ceasefire and potential release of hostages is worth that risk.

Alternatively if there is no ceasefire then this does halt further Hamas attacks on innocent Israeli civilians but at the cost of more innocent Gazans.
Yes more Gazans will die but it doesn't guarantee a halt to further Hamas attacks or guarantee Israelis are safer so it feels futile and pointless to keep going the way Israel is going it is achieving nothing

I remember the weeks following the beginning of the Israeli offensive, there was a lot out there about Sinwar trying to call in promises from the likes of Hezbollah. He clearly thought he was going to trigger a regional response against Israel. He wanted this, one of his twats went on tv and when asked about why they didn’t move civilians into tunnels said the tunnels were only for Hamas and that the civilians were the Un’s responsibility because they were refugees. Utter twat.

‘Israel have a strategy to mitigate the impact on civilians’

oh fuck off do they. All those
dead children, that’s part of a strategy? If the strategy is to murder a 1000 Palestinian children for every Israeli child who died at the hands of Hamas then maybe.

I think theres a bit too much glossing over Hamas here, they don’t mind using Palestinians as cannon fodder, they really don’t it’s all propaganda numbers to them. Israel is nit going to prioritise Gazan lives over getting at Hamas and Hamas are happy to use civilians to shield their weapons. They release those numbers with glee.

https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4295601-human-sacrifice-is-central-to-hamass-strategy/#:~:text=Hamas%20considers%20two%20million%20Gazan,top%20Hamas%20official%2C%20Ghazi%20Hamad.

It’s just a god awful mess for Palestinians and I still think the Israelis should stop.