Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

[EvangelicalAboutButteredToast]

I know there are lots of pro-Palestine supporters in this area of the board. If not anti-Semitic then what else is it standing for in this context? Apparently it was drawn on some protestors banners.

Well said. 👏👏

For goodness sake, of course I’m not purporting to weigh up the physical killing of an innocent child against a symbol representing ethnic cleansing and determine which I think is worse.

Celebrating the attempted ethnic cleansing and murder of 6 million Jewish children (and their parents) is disgusting and terrifying (as was October 7th and what is happening to the hostages) and it should provoke the same feelings of horror and disgust from these people purporting to be moral and humane when quite properly discussing Gaza.

In many ways the celebration of a swastika could arguably be worse than an individual death, because ideologically it means something so much more grave for humanity and for all our futures…. But this isn’t a philosophy discussion and we need not go down that path….

My point, obviously, is that the same people outwardly horrified by Gaza can see the swastika being paraded and not be outraged and keen to distance themselves from that entirely and instead they dismiss, minimise it or condone it or say bat shit things like ‘it’s context dependant’ or ‘maybe it was a Hindu symbol’. It’s the same people who were justifying 7/10 or worse celebrating it, and yet asking the world to show some humanity for Gaza.

it makes me conclude that many of the people you see at those marches are either moral narcissists at best, but at worst, anti semites or Islamist extremists, because I can’t believe that truly good people who are rightly just desperate to see innocent people not starve and suffer would want to be associated with swastikas and Hamas flags and ‘from the river to the sea’ being chanted knowing what it means. i already anticipate the key board warriors will react strongly to my last statement but pause and ask yourself why… if you can happily identify yourself with people brandishing a swastika and symbolism in support of the rape and torture of Israeli Jews then how can you be a peaceful moral person? It just doesn’t square to me.

The murder of civilians is abhorrent and the right and just thing to do is to show support for a stop to this war and a stop for our countries support of Israel.
This is what those who march are doing
This is what those who march want.

Those who don’t want to see the support Palestinians are getting across the world will always pick up on the very few cases ( in the grand scale of things ) of inappropriate and yes unacceptable behaviour.

You just don’t (or won’t) get it.

you can’t March chanting ‘stop the genocide!’ Next to Hamas flags and swastikas and chants of ‘river to the sea’ (which I’m sorry to say, isn’t only a few cases) and not be a total hypocrite and complicit in perpetuating violence and hatred if you don’t call those people out immediately and expel them from your apparently ‘peaceful’ protest.

If people were truly in acceptance that a swastika is abhorrent they wouldn’t be saying it’s context dependent. They wouldn’t dismiss how frightening it is for humanity that western society and our police are now suddenly saying it is context dependent to show one in a march against a Jewish state.

you also wouldn’t be saying that I don’t support (non Hamas affiliated) Palestinians because I take issue with a March in their name including a swastika and the fact that the sentiment of those marches clearly make people feel safe enough to be brandishing symbols representing the ethnic cleansing of Jews in the first place.

Someone happy to march with these people is not a virtuous or moral person.

You won’t convince me that peace is the aim whilst you walk with these people.

I am sorry if you felt personally attacked. I hoped it was clear that I was expressing frustration with the dominant narrative of these threads, which always seem to be very tightly curated. Condemning Israel's every move is the storyline demanded, reaching its peak (or should I say depths) in threads like the one about bad things being done by the IDF, which positively gloated over them accidentally shooting the escaped hostages.

I understand that some posts are genuinely motivated by grief and pain, but insisting that everyone takes the same view - that whatever Israel does, the only possible interpretation is that they are evil bastards - is what comes across as antisemitic to me, especially in the circumstances. Reading some of these threads, you'd think Israel was doing it all for fun. In fact, just after 7 October there was a popular thread on here suggesting it gave Israel the "excuse" they needed to dive in and help themselves to all that lovely land. How that was allowed to run and run on MN I have no idea, but as a non-Jew and non-Israeli I was deeply shocked at this utter gaslighting. It's what stops me even looking at the Middle East forum generally, and I doubt I'm the only one.

Yes, Israel should be "performing better" and maybe they might have been better able to do so if they'd been planning this war, instead of responding urgently to horrific trauma. This is an army with plenty of unprepared kids who are going to make some catastrophic errors of judgement (as illustrated in the movie Lebanon, which is available without subtitles on YouTube: e.g. the situation at 14:50 onwards, which is explained by what happened earlier at 10:50 onwards). To me, that just makes the situation all the more tragic, and heaping on ridicule and contempt does not help to build a more peaceful world.

Going back to the swastika at rallies, to me the obvious meaning is reminding Jews of Hamas's promise to repeat 7 October until they're gone. Kind of a "remember this? plenty more where that came from" gesture. Not to mention a "Look, we can make this threat to you openly in the streets. No one cares. You're not even safe here."

No, I think we basically agree, I know no right minded person would think someone carrying a swastika and someone murdering a child are of moral equivalent. I'm sure most people carrying a swastika would never, at that point, kill a n 'enemy' child themselves. I also know it's a step along that road.
When people think about Nazi history and the swastika, they immediately jump to the end point. There are a lot of steps to get there though. The people who executed and watched the holocaust were by and large perfectly ordinary people, not monsters. They probably made very nice neighbours, read to their children, would take parcels in for you and feed your cat when you were away. In other words, they were just like you and me. And I bet they would never dream where cheering a flag that promised a better life for them and their families would end up. This sort of inhumanity is in us all and, I think, needs to be kept in constant check. I think it's dangerous to see the other side as monsters.
If I was on that march, I'd like to think I would have challenged the person with the swastika, fact is, I might well have been too scared of them though. I would certainly have moved away though. I didn't challenge the people with swastikas on the counter demonstration to the anti brexit march, they weren't on 'my' march though.
One last point. There were twelve million people killed by the Nazis in the holocaust. Six million Jews and six million others made up of gypsy's, communists, disabled, gays and others. These people almost always get forgotten. Also, please don't accuse me of 'whataboutery' I just want them also mentioned and remembered on the thread as they haven't been until now.

Well will you please withdraw your accusations of antisemitism and not brandish it around so freely. As I said, it's one of the worse things you can call someone. And I say this as a part Jewish family with relatives murdered in Nazis death camps, not that that should make a difference. Despite this, I'm still horrified by the actions of the Israeli government.

I don't think I am brandishing it around freely. It is my genuine concern about these threads, not about you personally.

In fact, to some extent we have no choice but to follow the "evil Israel" narrative here. Otherwise, we are accused of not caring that Palestinian children are dying.

Well you did accuse me personally, or a post I made, of being antisemitic. Not just antisemitic but 'deeply antisemitic'.

In fact, to some extent we have no choice but to follow the "evil Israel" narrative here. Otherwise, we are accused of not caring that Palestinian children are dying.

You can flip that though. I would suggest that if you do care about Palestinian children dying you are accused of being anti-semitic

@Dibilnik and "evil" Israel is your words I have not once seen a poster say that. I do think some of the top Israeli politicians who spout hate though are pretty evil

I have seen posters push “evil Israel” tropes - eg a PP saying “I hate Israelis” etc
Unfortunately horrible atrocities ( on both sides) make people vent their anger in inflammatory ways.

Also, accusations of antisemitism do shut down criticism of Israeli actions. Whether that is intended or not. Having said that, we should always try to be careful with our words. For instance, I always try to use 'Israeli government' 'Russian government' 'American government' 'Chinese government' etc rather then just country name although I probably don't always remember and people do just use the country name as shorthand without bad intentions against the population.

I am sorry, it was the wording of your post:
how can that not be a war crime? Is there nothing the Israeli government can do that people won't defend?
...that seemed to illustrate for me what I was trying to explain - the kind of condemnation that leaves room for no other interpretation, and in which compassion can only be directed one way.

I mean, it seems quite possible that it will be judged as a war crime one day, but we know nothing about how the tragic situation unfolded.

Honestly, I don't mean to accuse you personally of anything - not least because your username is one of my favourite people of all time, so you must be all right

What I dislike is having the deaths of Palestinian children exploited to force judgement of Israel as an evil country blatantly motivated by greed, with an incompetent army inflicting destruction without a second thought. No one likes the Israeli government, and the war (as far as we can tell) might well be a chaotic shambles, but that is not the whole story.

Will you be taking down the accusation then.
I haven’t seen it removed.
You can ask MNHQ to take it down….there was nothing antisemitic about it.

Its. Wrong to make such upsetting accusations against someone, it’s a personal attack.
I hate it when people attack others to shut down conversations and these threads would be so much more informative if that stopped

@Dibilnik if it wasn't your intention to accuse another poster of antisemitism by quoting them as an example of being "deeply antisemitic", you can ask MNHQ to remove your post by reporting it yourself and making the request.

Apologies accepted.
You don't have to delete the post. I think it's good for insults to stand so others can see them.

You make a Good point there actually !

@Kendodd , that's a good point.

No, because there is a difference between quoting a post as an example of something you're trying to explain, and directly attacking an individual.

I have apologised more than once to @Kendodd for any upset caused and I have done my best to explain the views I was trying to express.

Besides, I know how much you all enjoy attacking me, so I don't want to spoil that for you.

Already responded to this issue earlier with Kendodds better idea of just leaving it.

See above. So my post is out of date really

It's so sad to watch, because no other minorities would be treated this way in Britain in 2024, but people are very angered by even the word "antisemitism". I think because they are swept up in a wave of it and do not want to have a mirror held up to look into.

People, sadly, are always dying somewhere. Black people would not be told to shut up about Klan rallies in London because people are being murdered in Sudan. It's very weird, and infuriating, and moreover quite heartbreaking.

I can't see my family staying in the UK, and we are third generation refugees. People are simply lost in this. They have become what I thought we would never see again. A policeman who can't say a Swastika is antisemitic!

That was @LeLemonyTicket