Anyone seen the video where the police officer says a swastika is not anti-Semitic at a pro Palestine March?

[EvangelicalAboutButteredToast]

I know there are lots of pro-Palestine supporters in this area of the board. If not anti-Semitic then what else is it standing for in this context? Apparently it was drawn on some protestors banners.

If an aid convoy is used for military purposes, such as transporting weapons, then it can lose its protection under international humanitarian law. This is obviously a complex issue and decisions in wartime must be made quickly, balancing one horror against another.

Me pointing this out does not mean I support innocent people being killed. It's rather insulting of you to suggest that.

Strangely, every person with military experience with whom I've discussed this, also seems to think that civilians and aid convoys shouldn't be targeted like this.

Have these experts got direct experience of fighting against a terrorist group that doesn't give two shits about the normal rules of war?

@Dibilnik I agree with your point about naivety on how war works (or more accurately doesn’t).

In the heat of battle the reality of the IDF in Gaza is a mass of 18-21 year olds trying their best to make accurate split second decisions, that have devastating consequences if they get them wrong. Mistakes are made, people panic, with sometimes awful consequences. I think that’s the reality of most wars actually.

Think how awful the uk govt was at making effective policy decisions during Covid, a fast moving crisis. Then think how awful any govt is going to be during an ongoing evolving war. Mistakes made are generally that - mistakes. Not a sinister evil plot.

Yes. Do you?

And on what basis would that be confirmed? Presumably you're aware of how that would need to be defensible upon review, including having reasonable grounds?

Erm, no. Do you?

Of course innocent civilians "shouldn't be targeted." That's what makes them so ideal for Hamas's purposes.

Do you have any reason for thinking the aid convoy was being used for military purposes? Or is that conjecture?

. I think it’s up to the IDF to prove they had a reason for targeting the aid convoy - not for the Aid convoy to prove their innocence.

Presumably you're aware that in war, there is no time to hold a lengthy and detailed debate in court every time a decision is made?

For sure, there will be some messy situational ethics to work through when all this is over.

Of being in conflict zones where terrorist groups are operating, yes.

Of working closely with military forces in those areas and disaster areas, yes.

Of holding the guns, no.

I find it shocking that your first response is not horror that an Aid convoy has been targeted.

The only thing the IDF have said is the error was misidentification. Nothing about arms transportation in the aid convoy

However I did see an article in the times today where a senior Israeli official was lamenting on the growing culture amongst the IDF of 'shoot first, ask questions later' which could be one the reasons behind the tragic incident. It wouldn't be the first documented instance of this happening in Gaza either.

My first response was to mention the "poor souls" in the vehicles and say "how desperately sad it is."

Listen, you go on enjoying your one-side debate. I'm bored with being told I'm a horrible person just because I am not toeing your line.

When engaging in a course of action that's likely to result in someone dying, it's important to actually have considered defensibility of actions.

That includes strategic views of the broader situation, communication and coordination, and, when possible, consideration by individuals.

For example, there are three vehicles driving along a road. Let's say a drone operator thinks they look suspicious. Unless something absolutely immediate needs stopped and they are the only person who can make that call, they then flag up their concern. They can then be advised, perhaps: " do not shoot, aid convoy in the area". Given there are concerns raised i this scenario, the convoy could then be stopped and searched. Unless it's an immediate life and death decision, you check before you pull the trigger.

Im sure you’re not horrible but speculating without evidence is inflammatory in this context.

This is absolutely correct. I am awaiting the investigation to pass too much judgement though. My gut feeling is that there was an IDF member who made this choice and if they did this, they should be on trial for murder.

@Dibilnik
I hope you will withdraw your accusation of antisemitism. This is one of the worst things you can call someone.

With such an awful situation I hope the investigation is swift.

It’s quite obvious the point you were making and also obvious you were in no way undermining the tragedy. I’ve noticed the pattern is always the same, any attempts to consider different perspectives or possibilities will be screamed down with lines like ‘you obviously love dead babies’ or similar.

Interestingly these people were ominously silent on 7/10 when they witnessed families being rounded up from their beds and shot and teenagers chased down and executed point blank (if they were lucky) and raped and degraded first (if they weren’t). Where was horror as the first response then?

I apologise- I may have missed the posts you refer to. I sometimes skim through posts.
Im definitely not one of the people who was silent about 7/10. I have not forgotten what happened on 7/10 and I chose not to take part in the weekly marches because they didn’t condemn Hamas or ask for the release of the hostages.
I’m not on a “side” . I just think that the suffering has to stop and it is unhelpful to try to justify or make allowances for every IDF action however appalling.

But I accept I may have misunderstood - it’s a horrible situation and emotions run high

Thank you - and sorry too, you sound perfectly reasonable and I understand your position. So wise not to take a side and I appreciate your reluctance to march (despite wanting the horror to stop). I find it shocking how many are happy to go on those marches alongside Hamas flags and swastikas and genocidal chanting and think that they are marching for peace.

I’ve thought a lot about this as I think I often come across as being ‘pro Israel’ when I realise I’m not in any way pro the Israeli government, I think I’m just protective of Jewish people as it’s so clear to me how thinly veiled a lot of what is said and done is truly about and I don’t believe one can really care about peace and humanity if they only care about one side.

I don’t think the pp was excusing or allowing any action by the IDF, I think it’s more about pausing, waiting for the evidence, not just allowing the bandwagon to run because with it becomes blood libel and potentially dangerous horses run.

It would have a been a really really stupid move of Israel if this attack does turn out to be a deliberate attempt to block aid; so stupid and counter Israel’s interests that it’s not unwise to pause and wait for more information before judging. I say this despite agreeing on the face of it, it doesn’t look good!!! so watching with interest to see how this unfolds…

this is a bit of a detour from the thread Op which was about swastikas at pro Palestine rallies. These should engender the same disgust and outrage as is directed at deaths in gaza, and it is just endlessly curious that it doesn’t. The swastika represents the most horrifying genocide of millions of people; every single person there (even the obviously uneducated ones) know what that symbol means. You March with it. You are complicit. Thank you for acknowledging this :)

this is a bit of a detour from the thread Op which was about swastikas at pro Palestine rallies. These should engender the same disgust and outrage as is directed at deaths in gaza, and it is just endlessly curious that it doesn’t. The swastika represents the most horrifying genocide of millions of people; every single person there (even the obviously uneducated ones) know what that symbol means. You March with it. You are complicit. Thank you for acknowledging this :)

While I agree with much of what you've said, I can't agree with this. Yes, the swastika should chill us all to the bone and there is no excuse for flying it at any demonstration. Even if I was being very generous and somebody held a sign - 'Hamas = swastika' (I'm sure that wasn't what happened btw) it's a line that shouldn't be crossed. And as for pp saying nonsense like people holding them might have been Buddhist, it would be laughable if it wasn't so offensive. Everyone know why they were flown.
But, flying a flag, any flag, is in no way comparable to the horror people should feel at the killing of a child. There is nothing worse on earth than killing children, or even adults and we shouldn't think anything else is equally bad.
Just my opinion.

People can talk about a bad thing just because something else is worse. Why is it thay whenever anyone expresses concern about anti-Semitism they're. et with "how dare you worry about that when people in Gaza are dying".

I'm free to disagree with somebody who says flying a swastika should be met with the same disgust and outrage as killing people. To me, there's nothing in this world worse than killing people.

And I wasn't the one who compared the two in the first place.