To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

I think many people misunderstand, or are in denial about, the nature of the enemy Israel faces.
@CaterhamReconstituted I would flip this and say you are in complete denial about the extent of the atrocities happening in Gaza and war crimes being committed by the IDF. I am neither Palestinian nor Israeli but if I was I know which "enemy" I would rather face and it is the one that calls itself a moral army.

You are consuming nothing but Israeli propaganda and are continually minimising and trying to justify what the IDF and Israeli government are doing so I for one will no longer engage with you

I'm not saying that, you said that. Stop saying what you think people are saying.

When someone replies on a point mentioned dealing with a specific point (as I said) they are answering that point. I made that perfectly clear because I know people like you misinterpret on purpose. Make stupid comparison with The Americas and Aboriginal people's don't be shocked when someone corrects you.

Do you think the ICJ are just 'misunderstanding' or 'in denial'? Is that why they have ordered Israel to ensure aid gets in? Do you think the Irish government are just 'misunderstanding' too and that is why they are intervening in South Africas case? The UN? Save the children? Amnesty international? All just 'misunderstanding' and 'in denial'?

@march10th

I sleep well thank you since I know that I am not responsible for what is happening in Gaza, or Sudan, or Iran, or Haiti or Yeman etc. I donate where I can.

You ranting at people on mumsnet doesn't improve anything in Gaza or anywhere else. It merely puts people off bothering to post, hence clearly declining numbers of people on these threads. I've read a couple of others say similar things they don't bother.

Yes. I’m talking about misunderstanding Hamas. Hamas are not a conventional enemy. They are jihadists. People talk as if Israel are worse. This is not true.

I don't think they talk as if Israel are worse than Hamas at all. You can acknowledge that Israel are failing to adhere to international law and failing in their responsibilities as an occupying power and that there is probable cause to believe that they may be committing genocide and acknowledge that hamas are bad. One does not excuse the other. There are no exceptions when it comes to adhering to International and Humanitarian laws as I'm sure you agree there shouldn't be.

What is your experience in relation to military strategy, working in combat zones, humanitarian work or ethics that qualifies you to have such confidence that you are right and multiple experts are wrong?

Not to mention that Hamas and Israel are 2 entirely different things, it is impossible to compare. One is a terrorist organisation, the other is the government of a powerful occupying nation.

Why should they not be compared? Why should the Palestinians be held to a lower standard?

There is a difference between Palestinians and Hamas. Please stop conflating the two as it is offensive.

You misunderstand. I am asking why different groups should not be held to the same moral standards.

It’s simple.

They are not collateral damage, they are human beings.

Their deaths were avoidable.

How have I misunderstood?

You didn't ask: "why should Hamas be held to a lower standard?"

You asked: "why should the Palestinians be held to a lower standard?"

@CaterhamReconstituted
No, there is no equivalence between the atrocities of 7 October and IDF military action in Gaza. One was the deliberate murder of civilians because they were Jewish. The other is collateral damage in justified military action. Body count is not the moral measure here. It is about intent

The IDF action in Gaza is no longer justifiable, gone way beyond that now, IDF is deliberately killing Gazans, they even targeted a MSF aid station because it featured in a UK news report.

Yes there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza now. Aid is going in, it’s wrong to say it isn’t. Yes the Israelis have stopped some trucks, for security reasons. Similarly, in some circumstances civilians have been deliberately killed, but that is because Israel are facing an enemy who use civilians as human bombs so soldiers can’t always been sure if they are going to explode when they get near

The aid going in is minimal, there are 2.1m people that need to be fed, thats not far short of the population of Greater Manchester.

Pretty sure the Israeli hostages shot dead by their own side were stripped to the waist, with white flags, pleading in Hebrew.... IDF gunned them down, that to me was when i finally realised the IDF have no concern for Gazans at all.

I think many people misunderstand, or are in denial about, the nature of the enemy Israel faces

....and Israel has made this very real threat far far worse.

You don't think the government of every country should be held to a higher standard than that of a terrorist organisation? You think governments should be allowed to act like terrorists or am I misunderstanding you?

I think everyone should be held to the same standards as human beings. Hamas don’t escape moral condemnation for the 7 Oct massacre because they are a terrorist group. By that logic, you could argue that Israel should not be condemned because they are a terror state and colonial occupier (as some people would call them), outside the bounds of civilisation.

No, we hold people to the same standard.

Palestinians have the right to live free from the human rights abuses of Hamas.

But thats not how it works.

Western Governments operate within a legal framework, look at how British soldiers have ended up in court following various "shoot to kill" scandals?

Hamas, like all terrorist organisations behave outside of the normal rules of warfare, nation states should not sink to their level or we are no better.

I have never read anything on MN that in anyway excuses the 7/10 atrocities.

I don’t think any nation state should behave like terrorists, I’m saying that nobody should be behaving like terrorists. Terrorists are also subject to legal frameworks.

I’ve seen posts on MN that has characterised the 7 Oct atrocities as legitimate resistance. Somebody the other day compared them with the French Resistance.

You seem OK with Israel behaving like terrorists though?

I've just seen your edit. Not that I'm arsed going into what Hamas is or isn't, but saying they're jihadists whose reason for being is to kill Jews is incredibly ignorant. Maybe other posters are correcting this misinformation you keep repeating?

They are not behaving like terrorists

Indiscriminate killing of tens of thousands of civilians? Bombing hospitals, refugee camps, schools? Starving people to death? Seems pretty much like terrorism to me.

@CaterhamReconstituted what are your qualifications or experience in this area?

I think we can all agree Hamas have been condenmed over and over again. I think we can also agree that the world would be a better place without terrorists and nobody should be one but also nobody should be an illegal occupier, nobody should commit apartheid, nobody should commit collective punishment. Peace and love all around would be great but that isn't the situation is it? Hamas have acted badly, the Israeli government have acted badly and innocent people or 'collateral damage' as you seem fond of calling them are the ones suffering.

@CaterhamReconstituted some of them definitely are acting like terrorists and have no qualms recording themselves/admitting to acts of terrorism.
Like the reservist soldier who casually spoke about all the things they blew up, including a UN office they came across that was set up to help those affected by the war. Just talking about it really casually

I think it’s so disrespectful and dehumanising when somebody refers to the thousands of deaths as ‘collateral damage’. It just shows where the value of Palestinian lives stand in their eyes. The innocent men, women, children, and babies who have been killed in Gaza (or indeed in any conflict around the world) are not collateral damage; they are precious fathers, mothers, sons and daughters, whose lives have been callously cut short; and many of whom’s deaths can only truthfully be called murder.