To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

Or like this entire University that was blown up that caused outrage. The US probed into the matter after it was publicly reported and the IDF recorded and posted themselves blowing it up. It later transpired it wasn't authorised, the senior commander just took it upon himself to blow it up.
It's a targeted approach at destroying the future education of the Palestinians.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-68138210

It’s a euphemism for unintentional deaths. Obviously they are innocent civilians. Civilian deaths are an unavoidable cost of war. It happens in many wars. It happened in the Second World War. It’s a horrible cost. But if we let the possibility of innocent deaths veto our ability to wage war, even when an enemy has declared war against you, then we would be all be living in the thousand year Reich. Sometimes war is justified, despite the cost.

@CaterhamReconstituted what experience or qualifications do you have that mean you can confidently say that the current level of civilian deaths is unavoidable, or to dispute the international consensus regarding the humanitarian crisis in Gaza?

I don’t understand the point about experience or qualifications. It’s my opinion. People have different opinions. Do you say to those who have a different opinion to me that they cannot be appalled by Israel because they are not “qualified” or “experienced”?

It is a dehumanising euphemism, which minimises the value of Palestinian lives. Many of their deaths have been avoidable. I’m a pacifist so I would never believe that any war is justified; Einstein said it better than me that ‘killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder’.

I'm asking to try to understand the basis of your opinion.

All lives are of equal value. Sometimes war is justified though, even if there is a high civilian cost. Pacifism is a completely unsupportable position. Imagine what would happen if Israelis were pacifists. All the Jews would die.

It’s the entrance to a rabbit-hole. I don’t really understand the question anyway.

That’s not fact though. That’s just your opinion, which is fine. It’s not my opinion, which is just as valid as yours.

You don’t think that if Israelis were pacifists, and didn’t resist attack, Hamas wouldn’t simply murder all the Jews?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

People's opinions are usually based on something.

That may be qualifications, professional experience, lived experience, having read academic papers, having read newspaper articles, having seen TikTok videos or whatever.

When someone states that their opinion is that multiple international organisations and experts in a particular field are wrong about something in that field, that's quite a firm position to take, and it's relevant to ask on what basis someone has reached that conclusion.

No it’s my opinion that war is never justified. And if Israelis were pacifists, then maybe this conflict, that has been going on for decades, would not have ended up this way, and there would be no Hamas for them to fight. Anyway, it’s clear that your position is entrenched. I’m not going to change your opinion and you’re certainly not going to change mine, so let’s just leave it there. Have a nice day.

She thinks all Palestinians are hamas

You're ignoring the highly relevant fact that Palestinians live under Israeli occupation and large numbers of them have been subject to terror and mistreatment by the state of Israel for decades. I know it's easier to pretend that this isn't the case but that's just a lie.

Didnt you say you were leaving? Two days ago??

Hopefully she can come back and clarify where I've misunderstood.

Yes a mixture of all the above.

Im not sure what is meant by a “firm” opinion - isn’t your opinion also “firm”? There are many facts we can all agree on. I’m not disputing that there are very high casualty figures (we can quibble about the exact numbers but can agree it is appallingly high). I just disagree about why this is happening.

There are many commentators out there who take different positions. I’m not an outlier (perhaps on MN). I also think that international organisations are hopelessly biased against Israel. More UN resolutions have been about Israel than any other country, inc. Sudan, Syria, North Korea etc., which is ludicrous and shows what their agenda is.

That response doesn’t match the question. I’ve never said the Palestinian Territories are not occupied. I asked whether that poster recognised that Hamas would murder all the Jews if Israel did not fight at all? That the logical consequence of pacifism would be the attempted extermination of an entire people?

I don’t agree that Hamas and the Palestinian people are the same, and have never said it.

It’s still a free country (just).

I'm talking about your take in general. You were speaking as though Hamas existed in a vacuum. I'm glad you recognise the situation in Israel and the OPT before this latest escalation.

I also think that international organisations are hopelessly biased against Israel.

What about the Biden administration - Israel's closest allies who have also variously said

• killing far too many civilians
• not using enough targeted weapons
• need to increase humanitarian aid partic food aid
• are air-dropping food aid as people are starving

Is the Biden administration also 'hopelessly biased against Israel' too?

@CaterhamReconstituted

,

The core of this problem is jihadism. Jihadism is a global problem that exists in other countries that have nothing to do with Israel and Palestine.

Of course there is a history to this, which further complicates the picture. But I don’t think it is one-sided - Israel have legitimate security concerns and have been attacked even since the state of Israel was created.

I support the right of self-determination for the Palestinian people. But there needs to be a constructive path to statehood, and it is impossible to negotiate with a group like Hamas.

You conflated Hamas and Palestinians above, as quoted previously.

Not at all. I was asking why the Palestinian people have to accept a lower moral standard for the governance of their people i.e. Hamas. Why shouldn’t we hold Hamas to the same standard as any other group or government? Human rights are universal.