To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

You've not responded to anything I wrote - just ticked me off and told me that another poster knows more than me

Therefore it was a bit of a waste of time my responding so won't bother again

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Huh? I read your post as saying that Gazans aren't thinking about anything other than survival just now so there's no point in wondering what they think. And you can't blame them for supporting Hamas when they need them for survival now and see them as their only hope.

I think that people still have opinions even whilst struggling for survival, and they certainly had opinions before the war, which they will still have after the war.

@Scirocco gave an opinion on a previous post which I'd appreciate her expanding on.

I do sometimes answer several posts at the same time, even though quoting one for context. These threads move fast!

Oh and Under these circumstances 'supporting Hamas' is simply self-preservation and a lack of other options? seemed to be suggesting that I was using the poll as a gotcha that Palestinians support Hamas.

@CaterhamReconstituted
Yes, I don’t think we should have negotiated with republican terrorists and I agree that is an unusual position to take as the Good Friday Agreement is much praised in my country. I believe it was an act of surrender that makes the break-up of the Union even more likely. But this is risking going off-topic somewhat and is probably one for another thread!

A very far right pov, which tbh does tally with your views on Gaza/IDF.

If Paisley and Emma Small Pengelly can sit down and talk, in deed govern with Sein Fein, then i'll take their judgement over yours.

If NI votes to leave the UK and become part of the ROI, thats their democratic choice, the UK is a supposed to be voluntary isn't it?

IF reunification happens, it will be down to demographic changes & a desire to be part of the EU, not as a result of the GFA or IRA bombs.

All conflicts eventually end with compromise, even WW2, Germany was not permanently occupied, Germany allowed to develop industries, huge numbers of war criminals allowed to go free.

Doubtless Palestine/Israel will end in a compromise too, if it doesn't the death and bloodshed will continue and no one "wins"

”Far right” is simply a slur, and my comments on Northern Ireland can be read discretely from those on Israel-Palestine. Indeed, my point was that conflicts are different and it would be wrong to compare Hamas with the IRA as a party you can recognise and talk to, as many people do.

I would actually go further and say that we shouldn’t have negotiated with any terrorists. But Hamas are much, much worse than the IRA because their goals are genocidal.

The GFA was the result of a relentless campaign of terror by the IRA and other republican groups that forced the UK Government to the table. It bought peace (a far more fragile and unstable peace than is often assumed - just have some conversations with people out there) but at a cost to unionist objectives.

The GFA is widely popular across the UK because we don’t see the cycle of violence we saw in the Troubles but also, frankly, because many people don’t know and don’t care about Northern Ireland (it is different in many respects to the rest of the country). But you won’t necessarily find the London dinner-party enthusiasm for the GFA among those who actually know a bit about the conflict.

The goal of a united Ireland is a reasonable, even a noble one, but for those who don’t share this position, who believe that Northern Ireland is the same as London as a sovereign part of the UK, then the deal was a very bad one.

After the Second World War Germany was allowed to develop but remember there was a process of de-Nazification that took place. Similarly, Gaza needs de-Hamasification.

@statsfun I think there are a wide range of views and nuances to the issue of people in Gaza supporting or not supporting Hamas.

Many people did not like them, did not agree with terrorism, etc. The population of Gaza is young overall - a lot of people have never been able to vote in an election or had a credible alternative presented, and would have voted for a strong alternative that maybe had a plan to get the blockade lifted and improve opportunities for them. It's pretty much been a one-party-state for a long time, with no free elections.

In a one-party-state, especially one under external blockade, that party becomes the main provider and perceived protector, regardless of other things going on. And that goes beyond keeping the lights on and the streets clean. Hamas effectively controlled a 'black/grey market' of goods that people needed that weren't allowed through the blockade or that came through in insufficient amounts. For example, if you need a specialist baby formula, your only option might be to get that through the black market, otherwise your baby could get very sick (as a parent of a child who had severe CMPA, I've seen how bad that can be). So, as well as the people who absolutely would not want Hamas in power, there were people who didn't like what they were doing but either owed them or felt "at least they're getting things in that we need" (it's hard to want to bring down a government/power that you see as having saved your child's life).

Then there are people who have suffered greatly at the hands of the IDF and the blockade, are angry, and get drawn in to the rhetoric that Hamas could somehow avenge their losses and get Gaza its freedom again (spoiler: Hamas do not have the firepower or technology to do that and were a major factor in the evolution of the current situation). Before we condemn these, mostly young men, as all being evil, we should consider that they have endured a lot and been vulnerable to radicalisation, so de-radicalisation may well be an option. Living in what is experienced as effectively a large open-air prison is claustrophobic. There have been many conflicts in Gaza which left people with major injuries and trauma - a young boy who watched his father have to have his legs amputated due to injuries from the IDF, or whose sibling went out to play and was shot dead by a sniper, etc is unlikely to grow up believing that the people on "the other side of the fence" want peace. Hamas are very good at marketing when it comes to their target audience.

I wouldn't say there was an overwhelming support for Hamas itself or for terrorist attacks. There is a difference between armed resistance and terrorism, and I think some of the surveys don't have the nuance to distinguish this.

Now, Hamas and other groups can also present themselves as the last best hope for ordinary people when the tanks and soldiers come. No matter how much you dislike someone's politics or condemn their actions, if they're the only person offering to stand between you and a soldier coming to kill you, you might feel some gratitude. I don't think it's going to be as clearcut as this conflict either decimating or increasing support - like all politics and war, it's complicated...

Don't know if that answers your question, sorry, just done a night shift and straight into a full day of parenting so I'm massively sleep deprived...

@CaterhamReconstituted 'far right' in itself isn't necessarily a slur, just an observation of a location on a political spectrum.

True enough. But we live in a world where “far right” gets thrown around a lot! Often it means “people who don’t agree with me”.

IMO Far right and far left are pretty indistinguishable in their inability to appreciate an alternative point of view. Both extremes are not good at finding the common ground needed for compromise and peace.

Thanks @Scirocco for answering after the end of a shift, and also all others who answered my question. I appreciate your insights.