To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

Ok. I meant the whole of what was mandate Palestine. If you’re talking about the West Bank then yes international law says the settlements are illegal. The Israelis distinguish between legal and illegal settlements. What would the borders look like to you? 1948 borders? The Arabs rejected that at the time.

I do think anti-Semitism comes into it, it is an old hatred that infects international organisations too. To accuse Israel of genocide is deliberately bringing up the most traumatic event in the history of Jewish persecution and throwing it in their faces. It is a blood libel which the Jews have been accused of for centuries. The passionate vitriol that is directed at Israel is also unique, I wonder why?

Perhaps its because they are killing civilians with zero regard? Even deliberately killing members of Medicins San Frontier.... you are clearly very happy with these murders and see no wrong in what Israel is doing.

Just because Israel experienced the worst that mankind can do to each other does not mean Israel cannot do the same to others, that argument makes you look ridiculous.

On settlements - a slightly different issue. Samaria and Judea are ancestral Jewish lands as well so it’s a complicated picture so I don’t quite agree with your characterisation of it. I know what the international community “recognises” but I think they are hopelessly biased against Israel

Yes going into someone else's international agreed territory, killing and throwing out the inhabitants is all ok?

And finally, Hamas are not a resistance force. They aren’t motivated by grievances against land or occupation. They are motivated by a fanatical hatred of the Jews. It’s ridiculous to compare them with organisations like the French resistance, as an earlier poster did

Don't twist my words! YOU made that connection, i was pointing out that even forces such as the Nazi's cannot destroy an ideology, as well you know.

Alexandra2001 - Israel is not doing anything remotely comparable to the Holocaust, which was a unique and special crime. To say that the situation in Gaza is comparable to the Holocaust is anti-Semitic Jew-baiting, and I will always call it out.

The borders between Israel and the Palestinian Territories are not internationally agreed. The Arabs have continually rejected a two-state solution. The land in West Bank, which includes places like Jericho and Bethlehem, is also the ancestral homeland of Jewish people which is why they have a claim there as well.

Israel is not doing anything remotely comparable to the Holocaust, which was a unique and special crime. To say that the situation in Gaza is comparable to the Holocaust is anti-Semitic Jew-baiting, and I will always call it out

Call out what you like..... bottom line is deliberately targeting Palestinians inc international aid workers is cruel and some would say murderous.

Are you seriously saying that Israel cannot commit or be accused of war crimes just because of terrifying events committed against them in the 1930s and 40s?

The borders between Israel and the Palestinian Territories are not internationally agreed. The Arabs have continually rejected a two-state solution. The land in West Bank, which includes places like Jericho and Bethlehem, is also the ancestral homeland of Jewish people which is why they have a claim there as well

So they have a biblical claim.... so that makes all ok to go in and take over Palestinian homes and even kill the occupants?
isn't that exactly what Palestinian terror groups have been doing to innocent Israelis since 1948?

@CaterhamReconstituted well if they have claim to it all then where does that leave Palestine and the Palestinians who are indigenous to the land?
Your posts are quite telling that you dispute what majority of the world deem an illegal occupation.
And then where does it end? Because there's also some who believe in greater Israel which encompasses the land of other nearby countries too which they also say they have a biblical claim too

Israelis have committed war crimes of course. And that is wrong. There are extremists in the settler movement who are truly dangerous too.

But here’s the thing. Israel recognises what a war crime is, and punishes soldiers when they commit them. This is different to saying that Israel itself has a policy of committing war crimes. The Israelis are not the Nazis, who were motivated by an ideology of racial hatred.

The Israeli claim on certain territories is not just Biblical (although it’s true that some Jews believe this is justification enough) but historical - the West Bank is where the ancient kingdom of Israel was. I can understand why the settlements are controversial though.

I’m not saying that everything that Israel does is correct or that every Israeli is incapable of committing war crimes. I’m saying that it isn’t genocide to defend yourself against extremists who actually want to commit genocide against you, and that the civilian death toll is appalling but not deliberate and so cannot be used as the moral balance between the two sides. That is all.

To be fair to Alexandra2001, she is replying to me and the bold text are my words. She is of the same opinion as you.

To be clear, I understand that the settlements in West Bank are widely considered illegal under international law.

@CaterhamReconstituted Yes I tagged the wrong person by mistake.
I'm glad we both agree on the settlements being illegal

Fwiw I have always been a advocate of a two state solution. But I'm sure you can see how usurping more and more land has a detrimental affect to any future peace no matter who claims what.
The only way forward is for both Isralis and Palestinians to have the right of self determination on their own land.

I agree.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/israel-government-continues-block-aid-response-despite-icj-genocide-court-ruling

Aid still getting blocked. Oxygen, incubators, water and sanitation gear.

The argument that Israel has to essentially commit genocide to protect itself from a potential/imagined genocide is and always has been a head scratcher.

Yes a very warped logic basically demonstrates that there is zero justification

It was the OP who compared the Americas and Aboriginal people with Gaza. My answer still stands those people were wiped out enmass.

You've compared very recent conflicts which is fair enough. The OP didn't do that, hence my reply to them.

Please get off my thread. You have no humanity. The people of Palestine do not want to commit genocide against anyone. They want to live as people, as you live. Not as animals in cages for nearly a century. Just go away.

So what you're saying is that more people have to die for you to consider it horrible enough? Where is your humanity? How do you sleep at night?

Hamas wants to commit genocide against the Jewish people. There really is no doubt about this. Remember 7 October? Let’s talk about the humanity there.

I will happily leave this thread - it seems you want an echo chamber and not a genuine discussion. Interesting that you’ve not asked those posting anti-Semitic messages to leave.

@CaterhamReconstituted

I think it's important to remember that, just as there are Jewish and Israeli people using this forum, there are also Arab and Muslim people here.

Some of us are watching the killing and maiming of our friends, colleagues, even family members happening in real time, by the IDF in Gaza.

My loved ones who have been killed were not Hamas. Those facing death and suffering horrible injuries are not Hamas.

Does their blood matter less because of their nationality/ethnicity or faith? Because that is how some posts are coming across.

As awful as 7/10 was & it was a heinous crime, the ordinary Palestinian has paid a terrible cost and will continue to do so, who is ever going to rebuild Gaza? the Palestinians left, will be forced to move to God knows where or live in refugee camps for the rest of their days.

There is no doubt in my mind that the IDF does not care one jot for Gazan lives, and anyone killed (in their minds) are either Hamas, potential Hamas or supporters of Hamas..... which is how an Israeli Govt minister defended the shooting dead of a child by an Israeli Policeman, even suggesting he should get an award.

Anti semitic posts will be removed by MN if you report them but it would be good if you could at least look at what the IDF is doing with a more open mind.

Interesting that you’ve not asked those posting anti-Semitic messages to leave.

Can you point out the antisemitic messages and posters? There is no doubt they would have been deleted if there was any

There were posts saying that Israeli military action in Gaza is the same as the Holocaust. This is an anti-Semitic lie.

There is also no equivalence between what Hamas did on 7 October and Israeli military action now.

There has been much back and forth on this and people have explained where they are coming from. But it does feel like we’re going round in circles as any defence against genocide, which will unavoidably cause civilian deaths, is interpreted as lacking humanity towards the Palestinian people, which is another falsehood.

There were posts saying that Israeli military action in Gaza is the same as the Holocaust. This is an anti-Semitic lie.
It is one posters, albeit inaccurate, opinion not an antisemitic lie

There is also no equivalence between what Hamas did on 7 October and Israeli military action now.
How so? What happened on October 7th was an horrific terrorist attack on innocent civilians. The IDF are now bombing, maiming killing, starving innocent civilians and raising a country to the ground.

In past posts you have stated that people aren't starving and Israel are not blocking aid despite the mounting evidence to the contrary so I would suggest you also do a bit lying too

But it does feel like we’re going round in circles as any defence against genocide, which will unavoidably cause civilian deaths, is interpreted as lacking humanity towards the Palestinian people, which is another falsehood.
This sentence does not make sense, what do you mean by defence against genocide?

unavoidably cause civilian deaths, causing civilian deaths and starving people is most definitely avoidable

@CaterhamReconstituted there is extremely concerning footage coming out from Gaza, from a wide range of sources, indicating that civilians are being killed in 'avoidable' circumstances.

Shooting unarmed people, who are waving white flags and stating that they are surrendering. Shooting children. Shooting people and then conveniently having bulldozers to bury their bodies in the sand.

Destroying hospital equipment. Refusing to allow basic medical supplies through crossings.

Using weaponry designed to cause maximum damage and casualties rather than targeted strikes. Moving people to 'safe zones' and then bombing the 'safe zones'.

Those are just a few examples which suggest the IDF's military strategy is not intended to minimise civilian casualties. Urban combat does involve a likelihood of some civilian deaths, but not like this.

There is also no equivalence between what Hamas did on 7 October and Israeli military action now

30,000 + people shot, bombed, torn to bits, buried alive, starved, denied medical treatment....

Again, what Hamas and other groups did on 7/10 was beyond evil BUT it does not justify the terrible suffering inflicted on the Palestinians.

..and for what? it wont secure peace for Israel, in fact the exact opposite as even more extremist groups take hold in Gaza and the West bank.

Its all so short sighted and seems to be designed to keep Netanyahu out of court.

Responding to a few points from different posters.

No, there is no equivalence between the atrocities of 7 October and IDF military action in Gaza. One was the deliberate murder of civilians because they were Jewish. The other is collateral damage in justified military action. Body count is not the moral measure here. It is about intent.

Yes there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza now. Aid is going in, it’s wrong to say it isn’t. Yes the Israelis have stopped some trucks, for security reasons. Similarly, in some circumstances civilians have been deliberately killed, but that is because Israel are facing an enemy who use civilians as human bombs so soldiers can’t always been sure if they are going to explode when they get near.

I think many people misunderstand, or are in denial about, the nature of the enemy Israel faces.