To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

@statsfun
Israel will always have a security problem just as the Netherlands has to live with flood risks. Israel is surrounded by the people that were displaced to create a Jewish homeland. Even if 99.9% of them thought the whole project was just the best idea ever, these are land borders, not sea borders. It’s not that it’s good to have terrorists, it’s just what happens when you forcibly displace people or subjugate them. If you get rid of Hamas, it will just be another group doing the same thing, until the Palestinians are living in a properly functioning state with a fair amount of the land.

I find it hard to understand how pro-Israeli posters argue that the loss of 30,000 people is not significant enough to call it genocide, a litany of death figures from WW2 is trotted out to claim that the civilian losses are entirely reasonable and yet the 7/10 statistics are presented as if a second Holocaust is inevitable if a ground assault on Rafah is not allowed to take place.Its like as if Palestinian lives don’t matter. In the period alluded to, Israel killed about 6,000 Palestinians, including about 700 kids.

But then maybe you’ll say that the people of Gaza should be grateful to the IDF for getting rid of at least 7000 of their tormentors, even if they’ve lost 11,000 of their children in response to the loss of 1200 Israelis.

This sounds like a really thoughtful and measured approach to this.

None of this is correct. Suicide bombing is not inevitable like a natural event such as a flood. It is a concrete human behaviour. To think otherwise dehumanises the Palestinians as passive animals who can’t help but behave in this way. It happens because of prevailing ideas that motivate them to behave in this way - anti-Semitism and fundamentalist religious ideas about martyrdom and jihad. It’s not a response to “subjugation” or land or statehood (the Palestinians could have had a state by now if they really wanted it).

The Tibetan Buddhists do not produce an endless supply of suicide bombers and terrorists in response to Chinese oppression.

Body count is not the proper comparison between Israel and Hamas. It is about objectives and intent.

Millions of people have seen this from the beginning. That’s why there are marches all over the world.

Given Netanyahus map in September of last year which removed Gaza and replaced it with Israel it’s very clear his goal is to do just that.

Ok, so ignore body count (because it doesn't go in your favour 🙄) and look at objectives and intent. Deal.

Objectives

I'm using the ruling group/parties here most of the time as it's fairer than using the countries as a whole.

Hamas: have stated they want a Palestinian state from the 'river to the sea'
Likud party: have stated they want an Israeli state from the 'river to the sea'

So same then.

Hamas: will accept a state on 1967 borders (see their more recent constitution)
Likud: will not consider a 2 state solution and encourages the settler movement.

Hamas outwardly more reasonable here, at least on paper.

Intent
Prominent members of both Hamas and Likud/Israeli government ministers have made comments supporting violence against the civilian populations. Some members of Hamas leadership not regretting the atrocity they committed, saying they'd do it again. Members of the Israeli government talking about total destruction on Gaza, that they will be crushed as animals, using nuclear bombs etc, saying there is no such thing as a civilian.

Both have made genocidal statements. The difference is that only Israel is capable of realising it's ambitions...

I agree with you. I am European. But have travelled extensively around the middle east, including Occupied Palestinian Territories.75 years of horrific oppression and murder. Unfortunately, it took myself and many others to go there and learn from Israeli Jews, Israelis who are not Jews, Arab Israelis, palestinian Christians. Muslims. Orthodox Jews who are horrified at what us is happening. It is more complex then simply 'Muslims are terrorists. It is very deeply disturbing, how the palestinians were/are treated.

No. Body count is not the proper measure. Can you really not tell the moral difference between someone deliberately killed because they are Jewish, and someone inadvertently killed because a group are trying to defend themselves against genocide, in an environment where their leaders will deliberately hide behind civilians?

Some of the language Israelis use about “animals” etc is not supportable, but it is fairly normal during wartime to describe the enemy in such terms. Even then, there is much propaganda about the use of this language - it is often used to describe Hamas rather than the Palestinian people. The Bibi map that is being mentioned is a red herring. It was a faux pas, but he was talking about making peace with Arab nations without the Palestinians, who aren’t interested in peace.

Hamas do not accept a two-state solution. Their most recent charter explicitly refuses to recognise the state of Israel. They accept a state along 1967 borders only as a prelude to a war to wipe out the Jews.

I quite literally watched, just a few weeks ago, a Hamas leader on a TV interview saying they would never accept Israel's right of independence, nor live in peace with Israel, and that they would use a two state solution to attack Israel, and kill all it's citizens. And he thanked people around the world for their support with this plan!

If Hamas had any interest in a peaceful two state solution, they would have spent years planning that and not a devastating murder spree that they absolutely knew would kill any peace process permanently.

They would have educated their children to believe in a peaceful solution. They would have encouraged (and not arrested) the small number of peace activists who tried dialogue with Israel. They would have likely held election, and demonstrated to the global community that they were no longer committed to terrorism and death but to democracy and tolerance.

They would have done more or less anything other than plan one of the worst terrorist attacks in the history of the world during which they parachuted into a crowd of young people dancing, raped, murdered, tortured and mutilated them before heading to a peaceful and unarmed community and savagely murdering them to, burning them alive in their homes and live streaming the entire thing for the world to cheer.

And they would not have Israeli hostages for six months in their basements!!!!

"Hamas is outwardly more reasonable" - did you seriously just say this???? Hamas have never done a damn thing other oppress everyone, kill people and steal things from the needs. This comment is an absolute joke.

The “Hamas are more reasonable” comment in particular shows how deep the rot is. It’s like operating in a completely different universe.

Hamas is outwardly more reasonable

At this point, the thread has descended into gaslighting.

Also that terrorism is “just what happens when you forcibly displace people or subjugate them”. We know for a fact that this is not true given that displacement and subjugation is basically the history of Europe up right up until the present day. The terrorist problem that exists in Europe has nothing to do with displacement or subjugation of Europeans.

Terrorism is fuelled by ideology, so let’s stop trying to gaslight people into accepting that terrorism is something as natural as a “flood risk”. It’s disgusting.

"Hamas is outwardly more reasonable" - did you seriously just say this???? Hamas have never done a damn thing other oppress everyone, kill people and steal things from the needs. This comment is an absolute joke.

Not rot, trying to be objective here. The fact that your can't see that in any direct comparison the 'bad guys' don't have to lose on every single metric is telling of how little objectivity you have with this.

I'm generally pro Palestine, but that doesn't mean I think Israel, their government or even their military are bad on every metric. That would be silly.

There is more accountability for prisoners, better training of soldiers, better treatment for injured soldiers and a more transparent chain if command with the IDF. That doesn't make me an IDF fan.

Me saying that Hamas on paper are more willing to pursue a 2 state solution than Likud doesn't mean I'm some kind of Hamas fan. It means I can read 😂.

It's actually really concerning when someone is so single minded in their opinions that they separate anything into 100% good or bad.

I can't believe you're defending the killings of tens of thousands of civilians as somehow more morally acceptable than the killings carried out by Hamas. It's not "inadvertent". It's mass slaughter. It's genocide.

And calling a plan for ethnic cleansing/annihilation a "faux pas" is a new level of minimisation on these boards.

Calling Palestinians animals - is it unsupportable or normal? Both can't be true, though I understand that you're tying yourself up in knots in an effort to defend the indefensible.

Does anyone really think that Hamas will lead the post conflict administration of Gaza?

"Hamas is outwardly more reasonable" - did you seriously just say this???? Hamas have never done a damn thing other oppress everyone, kill people and steal things from the needs. This comment is an absolute joke

No one can really suggest that Hamas is more reasonable or even close to it, what they did on 7/10 was evil personified but add in the word "outwardly" and the sentence takes on a completely different meaning.

Hamas are winning the PR battle, the IDF by targeting aid workers/restricting aid and shooting their own hostages as they surrender, are not, whether this is rogue elements or deliberate Israeli policy only time will tell but atm it looks more like policy from the top of Govt, esp given some of the speeches from leading right wing ministers.

As i said, the danger for Israel is longer term, lose the backing of the US and they will be be easier pickings for the terrorists.

This is a badly motivated response.

IDF killings of civilians in Gaza is completely regrettable. But yes, unintentional civilian deaths as a consequence of a just war IS more morally justifiable than the deliberate slaughter of innocent civilians because of who they are as a people. The is no moral equivalence between the actions of Israel and the actions of Hamas on 7 October. We are slipping into something very sinister here. Hamas are the reasonable actors, the defence against genocide is genocide, unintentional civilian deaths are morally worse than the deliberate murders of Jews…

Calling Palestinians animals is not something one can support, but there is a difference - a universe of difference - between everyday language used about enemies that happens in every war, and actual genocidal war objectives.

I had been under the impression that WW2 comparisons were generally considered inappropriate, lazy and disrespectful. Apparently that doesn't apply when they can be used to try to take cheap shots at other posters.
Only if you care about the fate of your fellow human beings, who happen to be Palestinians.

Thanks for the laugh!

How do you kill over 13000 children unintentionally? Come off it. If they did all of that accidentally they should be decommissioned due to outrageous incompetence and being a danger to the world at large.

I suppose I took the human animals comment seriously because they then proceeded to commit genocide in the following 6 months. Context. Maybe if they hadn't done that your excuses for them wouldn't sound so ridiculous.

Hamas have never done a damn thing other oppress everyone, kill people and steal things from the needs.
Substitute Hamas with successive Israeli governments and voila, it also makes sense because both are terrorists; one an organisation, the other a state.

The ICJ say that it plausible Israel are committing genocide. Today the UN Rights Council have voted on a arms embargo to Israel citing risk of genocide. Genocide isn't 'unintentional civillian death' and I'm not sure why you are attempting to downplay something that is clearly being taken very seriously by both the ICJ and the UN Rights Council amongst many others. It's in really bad taste.

Calling Palestinians animals is not something one can support, but there is a difference - a universe of difference - between everyday language used about enemies that happens in every war, and actual genocidal war objectives.

@CaterhamReconstituted can I just check I haven't misinterpreted what you've said. Are you suggesting calling Palestinians animals isn't ideal but understandable in the context of them being an enemy?

I’m saying that in wartime people will use dehumanising terms to describe the enemy. There’s also a lot of lies and propaganda about the enemy. War hardens the heart. This has happened in every war in history. We used to refer to Germans as the Hun - as savages. It isn’t particularly pleasant. But it’s ordinary during a war. The use of these terms should not be used as evidence of genocidal intent, or of hatred borne out of ideological commitment.

Ok so I interpreted you right thanks for clarifying.

Don't agree though that it is prevalent or acceptable in modern societies whether at war or not especially not from the leaders of a country I would have thought they could be a bit more restrained. Palestinians also include those in the West bank and the enemy is Hamas not innocent Palestinians, just comes across as racist to me and dehumanising which is maybe the point makes it easier to kill them.

@Dulra it's easier to kill people if you don't see them as human, just as it's easier to not care about other people killing people if you don't see their victims as human. As a world, we need to do better than this. That kind of dehumanising is part of why oppression and killing go on around the world.