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Conflict in the Middle East

To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

535 replies

march10th · 26/03/2024 17:47

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
Scirocco · 05/04/2024 07:40

@Alexandra2001 a few ak47s 'stored' next to an MRI scanner at that.

MRI scanners contain pretty big magnets (the 'M' in MRI). AK47s, like most guns, contain metal. That would be a less than ideal place to store metal objects.

But, apparently we're all liars. Because reasons. 🤷🏻‍♀️

FOJN · 05/04/2024 07:46

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 17:14

There is an absolute plethora of evidence that Hamas uses human shields in various ways. We have all seen with our own eyes terrorists attacking and then jumping into ambulances to get a ride away in safety, we have all seen "doctors" in hospital shown clearly in other videos with weapons in Hamas uniforms, we have all seen rocket launchers poking out of windows in schools, we have all seen it @Scirocco

It is also widely reported on by Amnesty, NATO, HRW, and global press. Most of whom are no friends of Israel. The wikipedia entry on this cites dozens of sources.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_human_shields_by_Hamas#cite_note-:03-3

Amnesty and HRW have explicitly stated that they found no evidence of Hamas using human shields. This is the 3rd paragraph from the wiki page you linked to.

Amnesty International investigated claims made by Israel in the 2008–2009 Gaza War and the 2014 Gaza War that Hamas employed human shields, but found no evidence of such usage. In their report on the 2008-2009 war, Amnesty said that "contrary to repeated allegations by Israeli officials" that it had found no evidence of Hamas directing civilians to shield military assets or that it had forced civilians to remain in or near buildings used by fighters. Amnesty found that Hamas has launched rockets from near civilian locations, which it said endangered civilians and amounted to a violation of the requirement that Hamas take all necessary precautions to protect civilians from military action, but that this does not constitute shielding under international law.[9] In 2014, Amnesty said, regarding repeated allegations by Israel of Hamas using civilians as human shields, that it "does not have evidence at this point that Palestinian civilians have been intentionally used by Hamas or Palestinian armed groups during the current hostilities to 'shield' specific locations or military personnel or equipment from Israeli attacks." They also said that Hamas urging residents to ignore Israeli warnings to evacuate “are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as ‘human shields’ for fighters, munitions, or military equipment.”[7] Human Rights Watch also said they found no evidence that Hamas had used human shields in the 2009 conflict.[10]

The claims by NATO were made by NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence which is a NATO accredited think tank but does not form part of the NATO Command Structure. Their report relied heavily on reports from IDF soldiers and Israeli press.

This is how Politico described them in 2017.

"The center also hosts lectures on the evolving discipline of strategic communications, which can fairly be described as the art and science of weaponizing information and disrupting disinformation."

https://www.politico.eu/article/latvias-fortress-think-tank/#:

Amnesty did find evidence of the IDF using Palestinian civilians as human shields, this is documented in their, Operation Cast Lead: 22 days of death and destruction, report. Their information came from interviews with civilians in Gaza. Several interviews with former IDF soldiers, documented by Breaking the Silence, support their claims.

The EU accused Hamas of using human shields but did not offer a source for their claim. The wording of the AP headline suggests AP we're unable to substantiate the EU's claims.

https://apnews.com/article/european-union-condemn-hamas-human-shields-2c0d1c04cb38fc4acce37d8d624e1a3f

The UN Secretary General made a similar assertion but again the source of this information is not supplied.

https://www.un.org/sg/en/content/sg/speeches/2023-11-06/secretary-generals-press-conference-the-middle-east

statsfun · 05/04/2024 07:59

Taking out a substantial proportion of Hamas 30,000-40,000 strong army (either through killing or detention), destroying their tunnels and HQs and confiscating the substantial weapons they've smuggled in over the last 15 years absolutely will hugely reduce their capability to harm Israel. Assassinating their experienced leaders will set Hamas back 20 years.

Yes, new young recruits will join. But it will take time for them to become effective. Much more time than if the existing army and infrastructure was still been in place, in fact. And make no mistake, many would have joined anyway: we can see from history (before Israel was even a state) that this radicalisation happens regardless of what Israel do.

They may actually never become so effective again since I expect that Israel will have a much tighter security situation after this war, and will never allow the militant capability to build up so much again.

I suspect Israel have resigned themselves to perpetual damage limitation. And removing terrorist capability as it appears does achieve that.

statsfun · 05/04/2024 08:00

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 07:21

@LemonyTicket Numerous Western Doctors, include some eminent British consultants have worked at Al Shifa and have all said they have never seen any terrorist involvement at the Hospital.

So far Israel has not produced any evidence that Al Shifa is a main Hamas HQ, just a few ak47s and hand grenades.

I've no doubt Hamas will use any facility to try and hide from the IDF but is the cost to ordinary Gazans worth the destruction? as ultimately, Hamas isn't going away, no amount of bombing or death will "destroy" Hamas, with a 2 million population, mainly young, Hamas have an inexhaustible supply of new recruits.

I just don't get what Israel's strategic aims are, they wont destroy Hamas, all they are doing atm is turning their Western backers against them and more importantly, making this campaign a recruiting sergeant for Palestinians to turn against Israel.

My previous post is in response to this one, answering about Israel's aims and the futility or not of removing Hamas given that they will get new young recruits.

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:00

Scirocco · 05/04/2024 07:40

@Alexandra2001 a few ak47s 'stored' next to an MRI scanner at that.

MRI scanners contain pretty big magnets (the 'M' in MRI). AK47s, like most guns, contain metal. That would be a less than ideal place to store metal objects.

But, apparently we're all liars. Because reasons. 🤷🏻‍♀️

No not liars, thats not a helpful response, if the IDF are correct, then independent evidence needs to be provided.

The trouble is, anyone can place a few guns against a scanner with no power and then say "look over here - Hamas HQ"

If senior British consultants who have worked in the Hospital over several years, inc post 7/10, say they saw no evidence of Hamas involvement, why is that discounted?

UK doctors are not Hamas and neither is the CEO of MSF, who said yesterday that IDF is deliberately targeting Aid Workers.

btw i wouldn't believe a word Hamas or their backers say, total hypocrites, condemning Israeli strikes on Damascus but backing 7/10.

The actions the Israelis have taken against leading Iranian and Hamas figures abroad, is exactly the sort of action they need to do, instead of a somewhat indiscriminate campaign in Gaza.

Dulra · 05/04/2024 08:06

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:00

No not liars, thats not a helpful response, if the IDF are correct, then independent evidence needs to be provided.

The trouble is, anyone can place a few guns against a scanner with no power and then say "look over here - Hamas HQ"

If senior British consultants who have worked in the Hospital over several years, inc post 7/10, say they saw no evidence of Hamas involvement, why is that discounted?

UK doctors are not Hamas and neither is the CEO of MSF, who said yesterday that IDF is deliberately targeting Aid Workers.

btw i wouldn't believe a word Hamas or their backers say, total hypocrites, condemning Israeli strikes on Damascus but backing 7/10.

The actions the Israelis have taken against leading Iranian and Hamas figures abroad, is exactly the sort of action they need to do, instead of a somewhat indiscriminate campaign in Gaza.

I think the poster @Scirocco was agreeing with you and being ironic with her
But, apparently we're all liars. comment

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:06

@statsfun Maybe they will limit Hamas capability, though past military actions never did.

There is also the West bank to consider and islamist groups in southern lebanon.

So what you re saying is Israel will have to have an occupying presence in Gaza or Hamas will once again be free to re arm?

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.

But my bet is Israel will de populate Gaza and/or never allow a comprehensive rebuild of the area.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:13

NotSoBigCrocodile · 04/04/2024 22:29

Germany was supported not persecuted and was no longer the enemy.

Can I ask, where did you get that information from. Because that is absolutely not true. It’s been a long time since I’ve read about post war Europe, but a quick Google search tells me that:

• Germany had to surrender, unconditionally.

• Germany was decentralised and demilitarised. It had to accept democracy.

• It’s heavy industry economy was forced to become a combination of agriculture and light domestic industry.

• Germany was split up into 4 zones after the war, and occupied.

• Germany lost territory, was reduced in size and its eastern border was shifted west, falling under Polish control. About 15 million ethnic Germans living in this territory were forced to leave, suffering terrible conditions during their expulsion. Many froze or starved to death on over-crowded trains, while others were subject to forced labor camps by the Allies.

• The Nuremberg trials were held.

• They were assessed to pay reparations of $3 billion.

I could really go on. They weren’t supported. Less so those that happened to be on the Eastern side of the Wall.

The reason that the fighting didn’t go on after the war, wasn’t because Germany was “supported” (which it wasn’t), nor was it supported after WW1, it was because they were forced to surrender - surrender or die. And if they hadn’t surrendered, the Allies would have kept killing them until they did. That did happen. But they eventually surrendered.

In Germany alone 20 million people were homeless. The country was reduced to rubble. There were millions of displaced persons wandering around the countryside. Families were wiped out. The destruction is really hard to comprehend. The Germans had rebuild their lives before - after WW1 and the Great Depression that ravaged it after that - and they did so again. And so did all of Europe, not because anyone was “supported”, but because enough blood had been spilled. Enough damage had been done. Enough horrors had taken place. No one wanted to fight anymore, people just wanted to live. In peace. And they did. And it has been a gift to the future generations of Europe.

Germans also went through a long and laborious of de-nazification.

A school curriculum was introduced to de-program children from Jew hatred, and organisations, institutions and workplaces were re-educated and people were taught that the ideas of Nazis were unacceptable and racist.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:19

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 07:21

@LemonyTicket Numerous Western Doctors, include some eminent British consultants have worked at Al Shifa and have all said they have never seen any terrorist involvement at the Hospital.

So far Israel has not produced any evidence that Al Shifa is a main Hamas HQ, just a few ak47s and hand grenades.

I've no doubt Hamas will use any facility to try and hide from the IDF but is the cost to ordinary Gazans worth the destruction? as ultimately, Hamas isn't going away, no amount of bombing or death will "destroy" Hamas, with a 2 million population, mainly young, Hamas have an inexhaustible supply of new recruits.

I just don't get what Israel's strategic aims are, they wont destroy Hamas, all they are doing atm is turning their Western backers against them and more importantly, making this campaign a recruiting sergeant for Palestinians to turn against Israel.

I'm afraid I absolutely do not believe this. Being a western doctor means little to me. Josef Mengele was a western doctor...it's not an identity which makes you beyond dishonesty 8r even partipation in wrongdoing. Which is an illustration, not an accusation. Certainly I see and hear western people EVERY DAY who happily say they fully support Hamas.

The evidence of my eyes and ears tells me that Hamas' terror network is threaded through all of the Gaza Strip, in every sense, and that sites and institutions which should have been neutral and uninvolved, were anything but. You all don't need to agree. But I stand by my assessment.

Scirocco · 05/04/2024 08:20

Dulra · 05/04/2024 08:06

I think the poster @Scirocco was agreeing with you and being ironic with her
But, apparently we're all liars. comment

Yep. I'm one of the people saying that I never saw evidence of it, and that there are grave concerns that my fellow healthcare workers are being targeted.

I gave a pretty clear example the other day, @Alexandra2001 , of two healthcare workers having been executed. I was basically told I was lying, that they were probably terrorists, to have empathy for the poor soldiers who bravely tied them up and shot them.

Far braver people than me have gone to the media to share these points and have been dismissed and minimised.

Dulra · 05/04/2024 08:25

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:06

@statsfun Maybe they will limit Hamas capability, though past military actions never did.

There is also the West bank to consider and islamist groups in southern lebanon.

So what you re saying is Israel will have to have an occupying presence in Gaza or Hamas will once again be free to re arm?

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.

But my bet is Israel will de populate Gaza and/or never allow a comprehensive rebuild of the area.

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.
I also think Israel are going to have to let other organisations in to help with the rebuild, organisations that they claim are anti -Israel such as UNWRA and the UN. Also who funds the rebuild?
Currently we have a situation where there is no functioning health system in Gaza. It is priority to put alternatives such as field hospitals in place asap but with Israel only just agreeing to open more access routes for aid after immense pressure to do so, how will medical supports be supplied and administered? With so many murdered medical staff who will want to go there now? People forget that although it is a war zone people are still suffering from other medical conditions such as cancer, diabetes etc and without the right medical supports and equipment these people will die. I have already read that cancer patients aren't getting access to chemotherapy, infant mortality rate has increased. The current death rate is high but it will be higher if you account for all those that will die indirectly because of the conflict.

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:29

Scirocco · 05/04/2024 08:20

Yep. I'm one of the people saying that I never saw evidence of it, and that there are grave concerns that my fellow healthcare workers are being targeted.

I gave a pretty clear example the other day, @Alexandra2001 , of two healthcare workers having been executed. I was basically told I was lying, that they were probably terrorists, to have empathy for the poor soldiers who bravely tied them up and shot them.

Far braver people than me have gone to the media to share these points and have been dismissed and minimised.

Sorry, hard to keep up!

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:33

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:19

I'm afraid I absolutely do not believe this. Being a western doctor means little to me. Josef Mengele was a western doctor...it's not an identity which makes you beyond dishonesty 8r even partipation in wrongdoing. Which is an illustration, not an accusation. Certainly I see and hear western people EVERY DAY who happily say they fully support Hamas.

The evidence of my eyes and ears tells me that Hamas' terror network is threaded through all of the Gaza Strip, in every sense, and that sites and institutions which should have been neutral and uninvolved, were anything but. You all don't need to agree. But I stand by my assessment.

Evidence of your eyes and ears?

I had no idea you are on the ground in Gaza, stay safe.

You like everyone else is subject to media bias but comparing leading NHS trauma surgeons to Mengele is beyond sickening.

I think you re showing your true beliefs and motives here.

statsfun · 05/04/2024 08:57

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:06

@statsfun Maybe they will limit Hamas capability, though past military actions never did.

There is also the West bank to consider and islamist groups in southern lebanon.

So what you re saying is Israel will have to have an occupying presence in Gaza or Hamas will once again be free to re arm?

Gaza, if it is to be once again, a homeland for Palestinians, will need billions in aid and reconstruction materials, plenty of scope to smuggle in arms.

But my bet is Israel will de populate Gaza and/or never allow a comprehensive rebuild of the area.

Limiting terrorist capability is a matter of degree. You can't expect it to work completely, But it's better than what happens if you don't.

I don't see a viable alternative to Israel reinstating security in some form or other. I don't know how it will be done. But given that reducing Israeli security control over Gaza resulted in October 7th, it seems likely to be more control not less.

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:01

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 08:13

Germans also went through a long and laborious of de-nazification.

A school curriculum was introduced to de-program children from Jew hatred, and organisations, institutions and workplaces were re-educated and people were taught that the ideas of Nazis were unacceptable and racist.

How was this initiated in Germany? Do you know?

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 09:13

Alexandra2001 · 05/04/2024 08:33

Evidence of your eyes and ears?

I had no idea you are on the ground in Gaza, stay safe.

You like everyone else is subject to media bias but comparing leading NHS trauma surgeons to Mengele is beyond sickening.

I think you re showing your true beliefs and motives here.

😂

My true beliefs are that I've seen a mountain of evidence of how Hamas operates, from a wide range of sources, including first hand accounts from Palestians such as John Aziz or Ahmed Alkhatib. I've seen videos, photos and irrefutable evidence in abundance that perfectly satisfies me that Hamas not only use schools, hospitals and civilians for cover - but that's its one of their primary strategies. You're perfectly free to believe otherwise.

I have also seem a mountain of evidence that some NHS workers support Hamas. Many have been exposed for this and many are under investigation by the GMC and even the police. An NHS doctor was even found to be the Head of a recently proscribed terrorist organisation that openly applauded the 7/10 massacre. I find that sickening.

Some antisemites and terrorism supporters work in the NHS, that is a proven fact. Being a "western doctor" isn't evidence of anything and does not make someone's testimony more valuable, nor does it mean they are not a liar, mot complicit or not even just simply unaware of what's going on in another room.

If you wish to believe Hamas don't use hospitals for terrorism, please, go ahead. I could not give a monkeys. But I think they do, and "a western doctor says they don't" isn't evidence. I listened to the UN deny for years that their agency workers were involved with Hamas.

Then I watched a server farm being discovered under their office, and I watched their staff picking up bodies of Israelis on 7/10 and chucking them , lifeless, into the back of an SUV. I think a huge number of people support Hamas actually, and sometimes they work for the NHS or the UN. Shocking? Yes. True? Yes.

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 09:21

statsfun · 05/04/2024 07:59

Taking out a substantial proportion of Hamas 30,000-40,000 strong army (either through killing or detention), destroying their tunnels and HQs and confiscating the substantial weapons they've smuggled in over the last 15 years absolutely will hugely reduce their capability to harm Israel. Assassinating their experienced leaders will set Hamas back 20 years.

Yes, new young recruits will join. But it will take time for them to become effective. Much more time than if the existing army and infrastructure was still been in place, in fact. And make no mistake, many would have joined anyway: we can see from history (before Israel was even a state) that this radicalisation happens regardless of what Israel do.

They may actually never become so effective again since I expect that Israel will have a much tighter security situation after this war, and will never allow the militant capability to build up so much again.

I suspect Israel have resigned themselves to perpetual damage limitation. And removing terrorist capability as it appears does achieve that.

This is deluded. Total control is unethical and impossible, a security strategy based on this is at best a fantasy, and at worst a dystopian reality.

Scirocco · 05/04/2024 09:44

@Alexandra2001 I wouldn't bother getting too invested in trying to challenge some people's views, tbh. A Mengele comparison before 9am says a lot.

I had been under the impression that WW2 comparisons were generally considered inappropriate, lazy and disrespectful. Apparently that doesn't apply when they can be used to try to take cheap shots at other posters.

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 09:21

This is deluded. Total control is unethical and impossible, a security strategy based on this is at best a fantasy, and at worst a dystopian reality.

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

PeasfullPerson · 05/04/2024 10:07

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

I think that people were completely appalled by Hamas, and that when Israel stops destroying Gaza and the people in it, the world will have time to focus more of its energy on Hamas.
But not as much as if the Israeli response had been more proportionate, because the level of destruction to the hearts and homes of people, and the infrastructure is huge, and I don’t know how Gaza moves forward from this.

Dulra · 05/04/2024 10:15

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

Because at this stage it is surely a given that the majority of posters view Hamas as an illegal terrorist organisation and being pissed off at them would be a complete understatement. I don't understand why people continually want us to mention Hamas when we are discussing Israel's actions, do you really want us to draw comparisons between a nation state and a terrorist organisation? I for one expect more from a nation state then a terrorist organisation which has not signed up to the Geneva convention and which is not recognised as a legitimate government by the countries most of us come from.

LemonyTicket · 05/04/2024 10:58

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:01

How was this initiated in Germany? Do you know?

People who had been members of the Nazi party (about 10% of the population) were removed from any kind of public position - including low down jobs like teachers. Hundreds of thousands were kept in camps while they were investigated and questioned. They were classified on a sliding scale of how "Nazi" they'd been, and the top level ones were tried for war crimes and the low level ones were just rehabilitated which was done through education in democracy or racial equality.

Severity of this process varied from region to region, different allies controlling at the time different parts. West Germany was much more lax and some Nazis continued in positions of power, but East Germany was more intense. It was complicated I think, a lot of key industrialists had been prominent Nazis who were doing not very nice things - producing weapons for the concentration camps or war, and some were using slave labour. All that considered there was an economy to run too. A lot of "useful" Nazis were let off the hook and sent to useful places. For example the best scientists went to America to work for them. Yuck. But hey ho.

Young people were exempted from repercussions on the understanding they'd been too young to know any better and had been brainwashed by propaganda into the horrific acts committed but a lot of other Nazis were punished even for low level support of the Nazis. Aside from the obvious trials, many were imprisoned and a lot were banned from working as anything other than manual labourers.

Everything was completely censored. Books were banned, posters, songs, paintings - anything depicting Nazism or that was racist to Jews. Some places like antisemitic media companies or newspapers were closed down.

All Nazi laws were repealed - particularly the racist ones. Nazi judges and police were removed from their jobs. The Allies enacted laws and regulations aimed at preventing the resurgence of Nazi ideology, like banning Nazi symbols, organizations, and hate speech.

In schools, the Allies implemented new educational policies that aimed to promote democratic values, critical thinking, and tolerance of all races as equal. They revised curricula to remove Nazi propaganda and indoctrination and introduced new subjects focusing on democracy, human rights, and the consequences of totalitarianism. Teachers were retrained to promote democratic principles and racial equality and textbooks were revised.

Efforts were made to promote international understanding and cooperation through things like exchange programs, cultural exchanges, and collaborations with foreign educational institutions so German children were made to see the world outside their own and to begin to foster peaceful feelings with other nations and races. Children were taught about what the Nazis did, and it was explained to them why it was wrong but an effort was made to retain German culture and celebrate it, just minus the Nazi bit.

It was a complex, and very difficult process that was not perfect and no doubt in parts was cruel and involved collective punishment. No doubt many suffered. I doubt anyone would get away with doing nowadays. We'd no doubt here that it was human rights abuse, or white supremacy, or something else. That said, I am awfully glad someone did it and I imagine German people largely are too.

Limesodaagain · 05/04/2024 11:35

statsfun · 05/04/2024 09:58

It is dystopian. Hamas really, really screwed over the Palestinians with October 7th. I still don't know why people aren't more pissed off at Hamas about it.

This has always been an issue for me. Particularly with regard to the lack of condemnation ofHamas on the pro Palestinian marches in the early days after Oct 7th .
I do think we are in a different place now. The destruction of Gaza is too too much .
Hamas are monsters but those destroying Gaza are also looking like monsters.
With regard to Hamas using civilians as human shields I am sure they do that . I think they have absolutely no concern for the lives of Palestinian civilians and their actions on Oct 7th provided proof of that. I think it is well known that they use a network of tunnels- some of the released hostages were kept in the tunnels.
I am prepared to believe there was Hamas infiltration in Al Shifa . Since Hamas is the government of Gaza I don’t see how doctors in the Gazan hospitals could stop the Hamas government using the hospitals as they wanted.
That DOES NOT mean the IDF have a free pass to kill everyone. I feel desperately sorry for doctors in Gaza who are trying to help the sick and injured. Some doctors might be Hamas supporters but I imagine most are in a heartbreaking situation. They don’t have a choice but to do what a government/ terrorists tell them to do .
What would we do in their shoes?
The IDF shouldn’t be bombing hospitals or Aid workers.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/04/2024 11:43

statsfun · 05/04/2024 08:57

Limiting terrorist capability is a matter of degree. You can't expect it to work completely, But it's better than what happens if you don't.

I don't see a viable alternative to Israel reinstating security in some form or other. I don't know how it will be done. But given that reducing Israeli security control over Gaza resulted in October 7th, it seems likely to be more control not less.

But given that reducing Israeli security control over Gaza resulted in October 7th, it seems likely to be more control not less.

One of the most difficult things to understand is that 15 very young female surveillance soldiers were left alone to guard the Israeli border; and that their, and a female head of security’s, warnings about what Hamas was preparing were unfortunately not taken seriously enough.

This does not mean it was Israel’s fault that Hamas attacked, but more Israeli vigilance at that point would have helped Israeli security at that point a great deal.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/oct-7-radio-transmission-by-slain-surveillance-soldier-roni-eshel-aired-for-first-time/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/surveillance-soldiers-warned-of-hamas-activity-on-gaza-border-for-months-before-oct-7/

Israel Knew Hamas’s Attack Plan Over a Year Ago - The New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html

Parkingt111 · 05/04/2024 11:44

@Limesodaagain I agree with most of what you have said

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