To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

@CaterhamReconstituted Calling the IRA "rational actors" in your efforts to defend Israel is an interesting line to take.

I think you've completely missed the point we were trying to make. The comparison to the IRA was only in the context of how terrorist organisations generally function and are organised not that both groups goals were the same or comparable.

They don’t hate English people as a race
Oh my god yes they do! And unionists hate Irish people. Have a look at the footage of July 12th marches and bonfires and the effigies and flags they're burning

You can argue about whether we should have negotiated with them (I don’t think we should have)
Unusual position to take given it brought peace to the island for 20 years and counting. The negotiations were also mainly with Sinn Fein the political arm of the IRA and now the main nationalist party in Northern Ireland and a serious contender for the ruling party in Ireland.

What you say makes sense in my opinion, and I agree people see Israel as needing to uphold higher values while considering Hamas’s behaviour to be beyond the pale.

However I do not entirely agree with what you say here:
If Hamas surrendered - actually gave themselves up, as well as handing over the hostages - the war would stop

They would most likely never surrender, but do anything rather than surrender.

But apart from that consideration, the war would only stop in as far as the Palestinians would have no arms, no state, and be under the subjugation of Israel.

That might feel like ‘no war’ to Israel - while the Israeli government and IDF and militant settlers carried on settling, shooting, and imprisoning, Palestinians - but would certainly carry on feeling like war of a kind to the Palestinians.

You can argue about whether we should have negotiated with them (I don’t think we should have)

What kind of a person would say this after 20 years of relative peace. the negotiations were with the political arm of the IRA anyway.

That just says it all really. It’s a put peace first approach. Everyone still agreed that they would still try to reach their goals but through peaceful political means. Obviously I’m putting it in the simplest, shortest way possible.

clearly you think killing people and fighting indefinitely is the answer.

The point about Northern Ireland terror groups was in response to the idea that you will always have terror groups, some of which splinter from main groups, unless some political demand is met. I was pointing out that this can’t work with Hamas (unless the whole world becomes fundamentalist Muslim and all the Jews are killed). It was also worth quelling this particular line anyway - you often encounter the view that Israel should negotiate with Hamas just as we did with the IRA. I agree with the points made about the psychology of occupation though.

Irish republicans, even extremists, do not hate the English as a race, as neither do loyalists hate Irish people as a race. They have different and conflicting political objectives. Over the years of bloodshed they may have grown hate-filled towards certain groups but they don’t have genocidal ambitions against any race. If 12th July parades are an expression of hatred, it is against republicans, not Irish people. The conflict is political and tribal.

Yes, I don’t think we should have negotiated with republican terrorists and I agree that is an unusual position to take as the Good Friday Agreement is much praised in my country. I believe it was an act of surrender that makes the break-up of the Union even more likely. But this is risking going off-topic somewhat and is probably one for another thread!

I believe it was an act of surrender that makes the break-up of the Union even more likely. But this is risking going off-topic somewhat and is probably one for another thread!

@CaterhamReconstituted act of surrender? By who? I think we should stop here because it will derail the thread but I think your comment suggests you don't know enough about the situation to make such a controversial statement like that. Thank god there were good forward thinking leaders on both sides at the time otherwise the conflict would still be going on today and many more lives lost and ruined. I get the feeling you support the politics of the gun rather than dialogue? Apologies if I'm interpreting your responses wrongly.

The point about Northern Ireland terror groups was in response to the idea that you will always have terror groups, some of which splinter from main groups, unless some political demand is met.
I'm not sure what poster that mentioned northern Ireland you are responding to but if it was me, my point was that there will always be splinter groups who want to continue with their cause through the gun and the bomb they are impossible to negotiate with but if enough people know there is a better way through peaceful means their numbers and support will dwindle. There are still terrorist organisations today in NI but their reach and threat is insubstantial

Yes, keep this brief, but the Good Friday Agreement was an act of surrender by the UK Parliament. It dismantled much of the security apparatus and British armed presence in return for vague promises by terrorists (who can re-arm in hours if they wanted to), makes it against the law to fly the Union flag for most of the year, released loads of terrorists from prison and means that Northern Ireland is only a referendum away from re-joining Ireland. I want peace yes. But not at any price.

Hamas are not interested in peace, they don’t wage war just because there isn’t a “better way”. They are violent to their core and want to see Israel extinguished.

Northern Ireland is only a referendum away from re-joining Ireland. I want peace yes. But not at any price.

really? So you would have preferred the troubles to continued indefinitely.

I don’t think the conflicts are similar or very comparable but the peace process does demonstrate that peace can be found in what seems to be an impossible situation - when there is a will for peace and compromise.

People like you would prefer every man, woman and child is dead on the streets rather than compromise on their ideology.

What ideology? The integrity of the UK, which is inviolable? How about giving a piece of London, or Surrey, or Manchester away to a foreign power? Of course peace is desirable but it must be conditional. The Good Friday Agreement was enormously favourable to republicans. It ensures the future break-up of the UK.

There’s also a question about to whom you award legitimacy. Sitting down with grisly murderers was a craven act of surrender, I would argue.

@CaterhamReconstituted
The Good Friday agreement has worked. And while there are still some miles to travel in relation to community relationships, the younger generation such as my nice and nephew have grown up in peace and embrace and enjoy their dual identity.

Peace in the North didn’t come about because everyone suddenly started hugging each other and integrating. The schools for instance remain almost entirely segregated by choice. It came about because of structural changes to key institutions and mitigating the micro-aggressions that reflected disparity of esteem for the minority tradition. It came about through dedicated intermediaries and by brave people gritting their teeth and engaging in dialogue.

Inviolable?

Funny, during all the Scottish Independence debates, we were told by the UK government that it was a union of consent.

I do think you need to stop there because you are a pretty lone voice in opposition to the Good Friday agreement. Over 71% of the population in NI voted in favour of the good friday agreement that is the democratic system working where the gun and bomb failed.

and means that Northern Ireland is only a referendum away from re-joining Ireland. I want peace yes. But not at any price.
Possibly but that is through a democratic referendum not violence, you obviously don't support the democratic processes. It has been left for the people of Northern Ireland to decide their fate not the British government and not the Irish government. Did you also object to Scotland having a referendum on seperating from the UK? I don't know where you're from or why you feel so strongly about Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have the right to decide on their own future.

Yes absolutely. I have many friends across the water myself. They are my people. I’m talking about the terms of a particular treaty. I applaud the efforts of the people on both sides to work towards peace and better community relations. Anyway, it’s getting off the topic of Israel-Palestine.

Any nation has the right to determine its own future. But it was a massive concession to give legal sanction for a referendum by a Government whose priority is to protect the integrity of the country. It IS inviolable, the UK doesn’t exist without Northern Ireland. NI is as much a part of the UK as London or Manchester. To believe in and campaign for a united Ireland is a reasonable position - I just don’t see why the UK Government should actively assist in that. By the way, I don’t think every demand for a referendum should be accepted. Otherwise you could keep having referenda until you got the result you wanted (as Sturgeon indeed tried to do).

Yes, the Good Friday Agreement is widely popular, the Blair PR machine worked overtime on that. Popularity doesn’t mean it was right though.

Anyway, back to the main topic…

Yes we'll have to move on I am just grateful that the moderate voice negotiated the terms for peace because we'd never get anywhere with extremist views.

UK doesn’t exist without Northern Ireland
This comment alone shows your lack of understanding on the topic and the history of Ireland. You are obviously a colonist which explains a lot. I think your posts on NI have been extremely offensive and dismissive of the people living there so let's move on before you insult us any more.

The maintenance of the union at all costs is an ideology. You have no regard for democratic processes.

It’s the kind of extreme view that keeps cycles of violence going on everywhere including the Hamas/Israel conflict.

My country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Do you see the “and Northern Ireland” bit? Northern Ireland is every much part of my country as London is. How is this a “lack of understanding”? As for an “extremist” position, the preservation of the Union is the current policy of almost every major political party in the UK.

IRA bombing is not part of the democratic process

And my country is Ireland which included the full island of Ireland before we were colonised. Have you ever walked the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? It cuts fields in half it was partitioned artificially and conquered through brutal colonisation.
The preservation of the union may be the policy of some political parties but definitely not all and thankfully each country in the union have been devoled and has the option to decide for themselves how they want to be governed. You can continue living in the past with your coloniser views but the rest of us have thankfully moved on.

No it's not but don't ignore the democratic processes that have taken place which we've already discussed. You are being intentionally goady now

I’ve been many times. I know the history but we are where we are. People have the right to decide how they wish to be governed but any secession must be peaceful and constitutional, and not forced into by terrorism. But let’s agree to disagree on this one.

Ok but my last point on this is the Irish were not given
The right to decide how they wish to be governed because they were colonised and the right was taken away from them for 600 years and than their country was partitioned

but any secession must be peaceful and constitutional, and not forced into by terrorism Agree and that is what eventually happened.
The troubles began as a civil rights movement because Catholics were treated less favourably then Protestants in many areas of civil life. So that is lesson for everyone. Oppression does not work, true equality and equity for all regardless of colour, faith, ethnicity, race, sexual orientation is the only true path to peace

Continuing slightly off topic but the 1937 constitution of the Republic gave special protection to Jewish citizens. This specific protection was removed in 1970 along with a clause that gave the Catholic Church special recognition-it was unreasonable to expect people from a unionist tradition to accept such a clause.

Sorry, I was busy yesterday so will try to answer all in one mega-post!

That's a really interesting point @Kindatired about the numerous terror groups, waiting to step in.

You never stop all terrorism though. In the UK, we are always monitoring and stepping in to remove terrorist threats - it just doesn't hit the news until that fails.

Hamas are big enough that they are the 'Gazan' party in the current negotiations. And from all accounts, it is an established formal structure. They are running Gaza after all.

I guess I have to agree though that even if Hamas leaders to surrender themselves and their weapons and release the hostages it wouldn't stop the terrorism forever. It would stop the war and the immediate suffering in Gaza though, and it would be as effective for Israel’s security as military destruction of Hamas. But yes, other groups would fill the gap and terrorism might build up again over the next 20 years. Still, 20 years of peace is worth having, for everyone's sake. And I do think that peace begets peace. If you manage to disrupt the cycle, there's at least a chance for peace to continue.

Regarding picturing how it feels for Gazans: of course I understand that Gazans feel hatred for Israelis. I also understand that they just accept terrorists as part of their landscape - so that's what I think needs to be disrupted. Perhaps as some have suggested, involvement from the Arab states could have a chance. This might get rid of those microagressions - and actual aggressions - you talk about. But I don't know how the Arab state involvement can remove terrorist acts without the Gazans perceiving them as another oppressor. And the terrorist acts would need to absolutely be controlled for this to be a possible way forward for Israel.

I also do understand Gazans not removing Hamas themselves. Even apart from the shared hatred of Israel, I understand that it would feel too hard to contemplate as an individual. Hamas brutally destroy those Gazans brave enough to stand against them, and certainly right now nothing is possible.

BUT

It's people demonstrating and influencing outside Gaza I don't understand. The Palestinian diaspora, and Westerners raising the Palestinian cause.

@mollyfolk says "Marching in the west will make no difference to getting rid of Hamas. They cannot be pressured politically from here. It would be a complete waste of time."

But of course Hamas can be pressured politically from here!! Far more than Israel!

Israel have their own powerful army. They will use their army to force what is really important to them by military means. That's pretty much the point of an army, and is why it's almost impossible for a country not to have one (honorable exception being Costa Rica) since without one, you are at other people's mercy and don't usually remain a country for long.

Hamas have an army, but it's not powerful enough to fight against Israel. Their only possible winning strategy is to get other countries to stop Israel with their armies (or the threat of them) Hamas strategy is entirely about what is happening outside Gaza: in the other Arab countries but also in the West. For Hamas, this is totally an information and propaganda war. (And also as a side-effect stealing more international aid money of course)

So yes, what you do here has a huge impact on what Hamas does. It's certainly no accident that Hamas only delivered their rejection of the latest negotiations after the US abstained from the UN vote. The demonstrations in the West embolden Hamas that they might get Western governments to force Israel to concede more, so they hold out. And Palestinians suffer. If the protests and pressure were against Hamas as well as Israel, that would change the dynamic significantly.

@ScrollingLeaves - you said "But apart from that consideration, the war would only stop in as far as the Palestinians would have no arms, no state, and be under the subjugation of Israel."

Yes, that's true. But the reality is that Israel is much, much more powerful than Hamas so giving up their army doesn't actually harm the Palestinians in any way since they don't get any benefit from it anyway. That's pretty much what Costa Rica decided. In Gaza, if they didn't have their army, the Gazans wouldn't just have suffered 6 months of devastating war which has brought them zero benefit.

Giving up their army does harm the terrorists who get their personal power from leading a mafia and their personal wealth from stealing aid, of course.

Israel - especially under international pressure - would eventually negotiate a 2SS. It might take a few generations (longer now, after October 7th) and would mean that the Palestinians have to give up some of their requests like right to return. But it's possible. IF the terrorism stops. Why isn't stopping terrorism the focus of all the pro-Palestinian demonstrators? It's the only possible way for life to improve for Palestinians.

I am glad that someone admits that Hamas does not have the ability to destroy Israel. I think that most analysts agree that Hamas intended to provoke an Israeli reaction sufficient to draw in Hezbollah who do actually have the capacity to inflict serious damage to Israel.

Unchecked by Biden, Netanyahu has made progress on depopulating swathes of Gaza made the more extreme coalition partners happy, thus deferring his fall from power and his likely incarceration.

But Hamas is an ideology and the ideology is strengthened by the Israeli atrocities. We see that already it has reconstituted in parts of Northern Gaza. The tunnel network is still largely intact. The fighter groups are reported to reduced in size from groups if 30 to 1-2 guerrilla fighters. There’s the risk that there will be no leaders to negotiate with who can bring the movement on board. There have been hints that some splinter groups have made off with some of the hostages.With famine setting in , the outlook for Gaza is looking bleaker and bleaker and the outlook for the hostages is pretty grim.

They all need to grit their teeth, keep a vomit bowl beside them and crack on with getting dialogue going and the international community need to take some serious measures like trade bans in Israel