To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

Yes REALLY 😥

My statement was "Israel killed less civilians in NINE YEARS than Gazans killed on 7/10 in six hours"

Each civilian (or any) casualty is recorded by the UN here: https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties This is tracked by census and independently verified. It is absolutely irrefutable.

If you care to filter out CIVILIAN deaths by ISRAELI FORCES in the 9 year period from 6th October 2015 to 6th October 2023 the total number is 1232 - significantly less than were killed on October 7th in 6 hours - just as I said.

Only 470 of those were in Gaza.

Do I find it "acceptable"? I am not sure I have a choice dear. No one asked me. But in an active conflict zone over nine years despite tens of thousands of missiles fired at Israel and many, many, many attacks on it's citizens, I think that is a very low number of civilian deaths and indicative that Israel has never had any intent to kill Palestinians. Had they wanted to, that number would be 50x bigger. As Hamas clearly demonstrated in their six hour rampage on 7/10

I really don't like the language of some of the Israeli leadership, but as I said, there is simply no evidence that there has ever been an intent to kill Palestinians. Whatever nonsense they spout.

I also find it bewildering slightly that you overlook that the other side quite openly tell you they want to slaughter all Jews (not Israelis, JEWS) repeatedly, openly, with chest and pride and then literally show you this and in a six hour murderous rampage do exactly that and yet here you are sending me charts and graphs with all sorts of exclamation marks.

The truth is Sunak or Macron would not be in this position, because they'd have obliterated Gaza a long time ago. Most countries would have. Because most countries are pretty violent and horrible. Israel, whatever vile garbage some current politicians spew, has really tried pretty hard not to kill people historically. And that's just unavoidable reality.

You're skipping out an awful lot of fairly important information. Arafat briefly went along with negotiations and then backed out. He rejected the offer made to him by Ehud Barak based on a two-state solution and declined to negotiate for an alternative plan. So your half of the story doesn't mean much as it never materialised. Clinton said it was a waste of time!

The movements Israel made for peace were fruitless. Disengaging Gaza was a huge concession, and the response they got was Hamas. Bombs fired at them within a few weeks of leaving, and declarations of imminent annihilation which have not stopped since. This is hardly a sign people want peace with you, is it?

Whilst I was hopeful Hamas were not completely stupid and might see the best thing to do was move forwards in peace, they had clearly instead spent literally years planning this horrific terror attack which they would have been fully aware would kill any peace negotiations for years, perhaps even forever. And they have since gone on live television and stated openly they'd use a two state solution to plot a takeover and annihilation of Israel.

I don't deny the "Nakba" happened. I deny it's uniqueness. The same happened to Jews and many other people, including my own family. In fact I understate, because unlike the dispossession of most people's, this occurred at least partly because Palestinians chose to launch a war and then lost. The Nakba is in effect a very long grieving period for losing a war and being unable to accept the consequences like every other country on the planet in history.

The people who did not want to murder Jews and throw them in the sea stayed put and were made Israeli citizens. My family would have loved to be allowed to stay and be citizens of the countries where they'd lived for generations - but no such option was given, so excuse me if I don't join your bandwagon in believing this sad event was somehow so terrible that no one can possibly move on.

I do not believe Jewish people have "more right". I believe they have equal right. What was once Israel is now no longer Israel. Parts of it are in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Jews are not murdering everyone to get it back. They accepted part of the land, and Palestinians had to accept part of it too. That is the choice people need to make, unless they want to fight to the death for it - and if they choose that then what do you want? Israel to commit suicide and just let them have it?

The fact is that Muslims took over this land and they implemented Islamic rule, which included making all people who were NOT Muslim dhimmi, subordinate to Muslims in a legal and very real sense. They have a certain way of life and living and certain belief systems that link their politics / law to their religious beliefs. And that's fine. What is NOT fine is to force with guns and bombs that all indigenous people succumb to this.

Palestine, has one of the most fundamentalist populations on Earth, with only Afghanistan and Pakistan scoring higher on the scales of religious piety. They almost all believe that homosexuality should be illegal for example. And that's up to them, but they cannot force ALL people to live this way.

Jews are indigenous to Israel. The Mosque is literally built ON TOP OF the Temple. It is their home too. And now they have a tiny piece of it (certainly not all) to rule themselves as they wish to live. They want western democracy and liberalism. They want freedoms. They want a country where Jews, Christians and Muslims are equal under law. They want democracy. They want music festivals where women dance in tiny clothes.

Why should they not be allowed this independence? The entire middle east simple does not belong to Muslims. Other people were there first and have just as much right to live THEIR belief system and THEIR way of life on those lands. It's as simple as that.

Palestinians were given 80% of the land by the Peel commission. They refused it. They were given 50% of the land by the UN. They refused it. Nothing other than 100% of the land is acceptable to them and it seems to me that most people just think "well just give it to them".

No. That isn't what justice or fairness looks like, they must share, just like everyone else had to.

I don't overlook anything. Yes Hamas has stated their intention clearly; there is no doubt about it. Military, they cannot achieve it.
You also appear to dismiss the anti Palestinian rhetoric by successive Israeli prime ministers as "nonsense", Netanyahu's actions now seems to match his predecessors' words. The Israeli government is under investigation by the ICJ.
Why do you think that is?
I have a question to ask you. Why did the IDF take so long to come to the rescue of the victims on that terrible day? Why were the terrorist allowed to carry on their hideous crimes for 6 hours?
The truth is Sunak or Macron would not be in this position, because they'd have obliterated Gaza a long time ago. Most countries would have. Because most countries are pretty violent and horrible. Israel, whatever vile garbage some current politicians spew, has really tried pretty hard not to kill people historically. And that's just unavoidable reality.
Most countries=nasties
Israel= goody.
What a black and white view of the world.
Finally, you quote the UN but I thought the UN was biased against Israel. You can't have it both way.
Have a pleasant evening.
Please do use call me dear. It is patronising.

@Auvergne63

Are you implying Israeli authorities let their citizens be murdered deliberately? If you are beset with these mad conspiracy theories you need to get help. What kind of a person even comes up with something like that. The "Israeli authorities" were regular people, some of whom had family and friends butchered that day.

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service. They had to call in reservists and people have travelled from all over to help defend it. They were not prepared to be invaded that day, and Hamas attacked their nearby military and murdered everyone.

The UN most certainly is biased against Israel, as is evident from some of their behavior from turning a blind eye to the infiltration of UNRWA by Hamas (despite being warned for years) or their insane behavior like awarding Iran the role of global human rights chair. The UN isn't a magical place - they have staff who have politics just like you or me. And those staff are heavily weighted against Israel.

Their data on civilian deaths, however, cannot be disputed. It is taken from a census and independently verified with at least one eye witness. That procedure was implemented because Hamas were (surprise) exaggerating their death tolls in the media.

Israel has a relatively small military - most of whom are actually kids on national service

That's crazy. I know we are told again and again that Hamas train kids to be fighters but I had no idea that Israel forces children to be fighters and do national service.

@LemonyTicket
You can see from @Auvergne63 ’s chart that road traffic accidents kill kill more Israel’s than terrorists. The scale of Israel’s terrorist problem is similar to the troubles in Northern Ireland. But the British did not take the approach of mass extermination of whole neighbourhoods in case a terrorist might be in the basement. Therefore I think that is very unlikely that current prime ministers of the UK would do so.

Also your comments about Muslims are offensive and I think Islamophobic. In relation to women’s rights, there is some very good research from the Norwegian refugee council and the University of Exeter on this topic. Basically it indicated that the blockade of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank is inherently linked to the lack of progression on this front and puts the blame firmly at Israel's feet.

This seems quite a desperate response, if I’m honest.

Military service isn’t uncommon. Switzerland, for example, has military service. Would you say that Switzerland forces children to be fighters? Would you say that Finland forces children to be fighters? Or do you just use that terminology in relation to Israel.

The only reason we don’t have military service in the U.K. is because there had been enough blood spilled in WW2, enough destruction, that we all made a concerted effort to live in peace. Thus, we no longer have the threat of war and no need for military service.

Other counties are no so lucky to live without threat of war, and so military service is needed. Naturally. And after everything the Jewish people have been through, I would be very surprised if they didn’t have military service in Israel. It’s certainly not “crazy” as you put it. That’s almost farcical, I can’t even tell if you are serious.

Military service certainly isn’t the same as what Hamas does. Even people in the West are well aware of the tactics used in our own countries to groom young people and send them on to their deaths as “martyrs”. Trying to equate the grooming of young people to military service is again, almost farcical, and I really hope that you are not serious.

Are you implying Israeli authorities let their citizens be murdered deliberately? If you are beset with these mad conspiracy theories you need to get help.
No but I am questioning the response time of the IDF. I think it is a reasonable question as asked repeatedly by news outlet, such as the BBC, including the Israeli press.

• *Where was the IDF intelligence and why did it take so long? All the difficult questions – www.israelhayom.com Your post is a personal attack, which is against the rules on this forum. I will not report you, simply your post is a prime example of "When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers."

Israel has a military of about 160k. It's a small country, that was not at war. Many are aged 18 - 21 and work in jobs such as office assistants, teachers, interpreters or maintenance roles. Many of those very brave young people went to defend their country after it was invaded and many of their people were murdered and kidnapped.

Hamas strapped suicide vests to orphaned 15 years olds in exchange for money and promises of 72 virgins.

I am sure this is completely the same thing :)

This seems quite a desperate response, if I’m honest.

The poster said kids, I assumed she was talking about children. She has since clarified that they are not in fact kids but young adults that they train to kill.

Your comments about Muslims are offensive and I think Islamophobic.

I’ve seen a lot of comments like this, but when asked, no response is ever given.

Why are LemonyTicket’s comments offensive? What about them is Islamophobic?

I asked a similar question on another thread, but there was no clarification given. It would be good to know what exactly is Islamophobic about criticising religious fundamentalism? As someone who was raised Catholic, but no longer practices, I have never had this accusation made to me when critising the Church. Clarification would be helpful.

Your post reads like an antisemitic conspiracy rant. Report away. If you go on the internet and allude to the grotesque and sick idea that Israel let it's own citizens be butchered, I take that pretty personally. It's ringing an awful lot of alarm bells.

It's one thing to question response time to an atrocity, in the same way one might question the ambulance response time to a heart attack in Sevenoaks. It's quite another in the context you made the implication, which was to infer Israel let people be murdered to fulfil some agenda.

These kinds of thoughts are the thoughts of people who are antisemites. It's exactly how the mindset works.

@Auvergne63
You can see from @Auvergne63’s chart that road traffic accidents kill kill more Israel’s than terrorists. The scale of Israel’s terrorist problem is similar to the troubles in Northern Ireland.
Err, NO, it's not. No less than 6 full scale wars have been launched at Israel, 2306 terrorist attacks, and several hundred thousands of missiles fired at it. It is nothing like the "troubles in Ireland".

But the British did not take the approach of mass extermination of whole neighbourhoods in case a terrorist might be in the basement.
That was not a war. Britain was the government of Ireland at the time, it was not under attack by a foreign state firing missiles at it or kidnapping it's people. If it were, they would ensure whoever doing that was stopped.

Also your comments about Muslims are offensive and I think Islamophobic.
I am enthralled! Please provide quotes of mine you find Islamophobic. I am waiting excitedly for this one!

In relation to women’s rights, there is some very good research from the Norwegian refugee council and the University of Exeter on this topic. Basically it indicated that the blockade of Gaza and the occupation of the West Bank is inherently linked to the lack of progression on this front and puts the blame firmly at Israel's feet.
This is hilarious. Israel are to blame for the fact that Hamas are religious fundamentalists who treat women poorly? Are they to blame also for Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, Libya, Turkey...? Fascinating.

Just to be clear, would you use the same language when discussing all the armies of the world? All countries have armies, right?

Do you hold the view that all armies train young adults to kill, or is it only the Israeli army that trains young adults to kill?

Some people do hold this view, though, but it usually applies to all countries across the board. It was just the way you said it, though.

It isn't even about religious fundamentalism. I have a Libyan sister in law and whilst she herself wanted western freedoms and escaped to the UK as a refugee, her family are very happy with living in a fundamentalist culture. They believe the Quran is God's law on earth, and they're happy to live a life where women are very limited in their freedoms and where homosexuality is not permitted. And good luck to them if that is THIER wish.

What they cannot do is take over the entire region and demand everyone capitulate. Jewish people don't want to live under Islamic belief systems, and why should they have to? Why should anyone who doesn't want to? People are perfectly entitled to their religious beliefs, customs and culture but they are not entitled to erase everyone elses.

The scale of Israel’s terrorist problem is similar to the troubles in Northern Ireland ???

The IRA killed 1700 people over 25 years. That included roughly 1000 members of the British security forces and 500–644 civilians.

Hamas killed 1200 in one day, mostly civilians.

And even that doesn't tell the whole story: the UK population is 10 times bigger than Israel's. So in terms of the impact on the population, it's the equivalent to us having 12,000 people killed.

I'm pretty sure the UK would have responded pretty strongly if the IRA had raped, tortured and slaughtered 12,000 Brits in a single day. And taken 2000 more hostage, including children, the elderly, ill and injured. That's the proportional number. The equivalent would be everyone living in the town of Glastonbury being brutally slaughtered - plus an extra 4000 visitors. (Not the festival, which has far more people, but the quirky pacifist town).

I really don't think the UK government would have just accepted that.

@statsfun
The population of the island of Ireland is 7 million and most of the violence took place there, not on the island of Great Britain

The British Government wouldn’t have accepted it back then, they certainly wouldn’t accept it happening today.

I don’t know where this idea has come from, but it’s absolutely not based in reality.

I don't think they would have accepted 1200 tortured and killed and 200 taken hostage either, for that matter.

Even without the difference in population size.

It's horrific.

It is horrific

I am not even sure you're fully going far enough with how ridiculous the comparison here was.

Hamas have launched tens of thousands of missiles indiscriminately at Israel. The attacks target civilians, and are so prolific, Israel is the only country on earth that needs a 24 / 7 iron dome. Each missile from the iron dome to stop one of these tens of thousands of missiles costs $50,000!

Israel is more or less under daily war from these people, for decades. And unlike the IRA they are not fighting for independence -they are fighting to literally annihilate Israel as a country and kill all it's people.

I think it's bizarre to think the British would have just shrugged and got on with it.

But destroying the entire country, killing tens of thousands of civilians and starving its population isn't ever a reasonable response.

‘People are perfectly entitled to their religious beliefs, customs and culture but they are not entitled to erase everyone else’s’

Exactly
Israel and the Jewish settlers in the West Bank need to appreciate this very simple lesson.
How many more will die before they do.

There’s many witness reports that state that health workers and journalists are being targeted. Netanyahu held a map up of Israel in September that clearly showed Israel over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Genocide of the Palestinians has always been his plan .He made it clear he wanted that land and several Israeli politicians have stated they want the destruction of all Palestinians so by your reasoning does that give the Palestinians the right to anihalate Israel as Israel has called for the destruction of all Palestinians
. It’s never ever ever acceptable to kill an innocent civilian and I struggle to comprehend how Israel supporters are so comfortable with the slaughter of 15000 children. It really doesn’t paint you in a good light . I don’t think you appreciate how genocidal your post sounds !!!!

Just in case anyone missed the map mentioned in @Nads0622 post here it is presented as a proposal by Netanyahu at the UN in
September 2023……………the date is very significant