To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

It seems to be working overtime and not just @CaterhamReconstituted it's every thread nearly!

But then killing overseas aid workers whether by accident or design has turned out to be a bit of an own goal so there's bound to be lots of pushback

I think maybe access to the internet might be the entire problem.

You may have missed this: but since around 1936 the Palestinian leaderships (although they have changed hands a few times) have been very clear their intent is the deliberate slaughter, by any means available, of Jews.

Most recently, you may have missed when they flew in wearing parachutes and displayed their handiwork over live feed and then went on numerous TV interviews and said they'd do it again and again.

@CaterhamReconstituted I think you may have misunderstood the examples given by @Auvergne63 .

Three Israeli men had escaped after having been taken hostage. The accounts of what happened set out that they calmly and clearly made themselves visible to a military patrol which was not engaged in any firefight or obviously confusing situation. They had white flags. They took steps to show they were unarmed. They announced who they were, in Hebrew. They were shot. One managed to get to some shelter. When he emerged again, again announcing who he was, he was shot. This was not a firefight or a friendly fire combat accident. Three unarmed men were shot. It just happened that they were the 'wrong' unarmed men. It is tragic to think about what they went through and how close they came to safety before being killed by the very people they had hoped would come to help them to safety.

@CaterhamReconstituted Maybe the Israeli's definition of "innocent" and "people" is the problem then. From 2010 regarding the murder of Tom Hurndall, his mother stated
"Tom's mother, Jocelyn, today said: "From the moment that Tom was shot, we said it wasn't about the soldier, who is a small part of the machinery, but about the responsibility of the Israeli army and its lack of accountability over civilian killings. To say that the soldier has reformed is to miss the point – the British government needs to hold Israel accountable for its actions.""
Israeli soldier jailed for killing British activist Tom Hurndall released early | Israel | The Guardian

My father ( who suffered under the Nazi occupation) taught me to pick my battles carefully, that some people (for whatever reasons) will never accept undisputed facts as evidence because they can't cope with the truth.
He also taught me critical thinking and to get any information from different sources in order to come to a balanced opinion.
Most importantly he taught to never state my opinion unless it is backed by facts.
I feel that your posts are nothing but a rehashing of falsehood and are, at times, deeply offensive.

There's certainly some very vehement new usernames around.

Why is it obvious Israel would never accept a two state solution?

They have seven times before.

Although, to be honest, I saw the leader of Hamas go on TV a few weeks ago and say outright that he would use a two state solution to launch a further war on Israel and kill everyone, so I wouldn't judge Israelis if they had lost interest a wee bit!

Maybe it's obvious because the current government's leadership have said that they won't?

Hamas need to go. So do Netanyahu and his colleagues. Ideally all to various courts to be tried for their crimes.

The current government isn't Israel. I doubt they'll be there in a year, if that.

I have not stated any falsehoods and I cannot understand how what I have said is offensive. If I have genuinely got a claim wrong then I would of course withdraw it. Details would be useful. But I feel over many posts Ive set out my position, which in brief summary is that:

1. Israel has a right to exist
2. Arabs have a claim to the land too, so some solution must be made to accommodate both peoples
3. The Arabs have rejected statehood many times
4. Anti-Semitism is rife in the Palestinian Territories and this is an impediment to peace
5. Hamas is a genocidal terrorist organisation whom it is impossible to peacefully co-exist with
6. Civilian casualties are a terrible but unavoidable cost of war
7. Criticisms of Israel must be proportionate and accusations of genocide and ethnic cleansing are clearly not proportionate

You may disagree with that. But accusing me of simply being offensive or in thrall to Israeli propaganda is not a reasonable position to hold in this argument.

I hope they aren't. Maybe then we can have something constructive come out of this...

It's been a bad bad week, (hence the uptick in "marketeers"), They've lost/are losing:

• "Daily Mail" commenters, due to the killing of the British Aid Workers.
• Military members and their families, due to not wanting to kick off WW3 with Iran for a country far away.
• Free speech advocates on the right, due to the firing of Candace Owens, which led to the absurd accusation that Christians saying certain phrases are antisemitic.

Have you missed the Israeli leadership (although they have changed hands a few times) clearly stating their intentions regarding Palestinians?
Here are a few examples,
" The Palestinians are beasts walking on two legs" Menachem Begin
" The Palestinians would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and the walls." Yitzhak Shamir
"Everybody has to move; run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements, because everything we take now will stay ours. Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon
"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories." Netanyahu
I could go on.

@CaterhamReconstituted if you want an example of something you've said that isn't true, you've insisted on several occasions that the IDF doesn't bomb safe zones. They do. Multiple agencies have verified accounts of this, eg the BBC's confirmation should still be available online, and I've seen the aftermath myself from pictures of survivors I have known. Yet despite multiple posters telling you about this, you continue to insist it isn't happening.

Well, you could go on for days, but it doesn't change the fact that no Israeli government has ever been elected on a platform of killing Palestinians, nor has it ever been policy to kill Palestinians, nor have they ever attacked Palestine unprovoked or used the considerably military might to kill Palestinians.

So my logical brain tells me: there's no reason to think they have intention to kill Palestinians.

And with all the military might in the world and daily attacks - Israel killed less civilians in NINE YEARS than Gazans killed on 7/10 in six hours.

So the quotes are quotes. They are not backed up by facts.

Really? Here are some facts.
CHARTS: Deaths and Injuries in Israel-Palestine since 2000 (israelpalestinetimeline.org)
So please tell me what would happen to say Sunak or Macron if they stated publicly " Insert any nationality/ethnicity would be crushed like grasshoppers... heads smashed against the boulders and the walls.
Would you find this acceptable?
Words are powerful and when words are uttered by leaders, they are sending a message, openly or tacitly to the population.

No, I said the IDF do not deliberately ask civilians to move to safe zones the better that it can then bomb and murder them there. If safe zones are bombed it is because the enemy has moved there or it’s an error.

And your evidence for that is ..?

You are the one making the claim…

Thanks for the propaganda spiel. Too many untruths in there to even bother responding.

You have said on several occasions, that the IDF do not bomb safe zones and the slightly more qualified that they do not deliberately bomb safe zones.

You've then said one reason why the IDF might choose to intentionally bomb a 'safe zone' (which makes it even less safe than just staying at home, really, given the concentration of people in a small area...) and one reason why the IDF might bomb a 'safe zone' but it not be their fault (because it's easy to bomb things by accident when you have extensive technological support for your bombing campaign... no, wait, it's actually pretty hard to bomb things by accident when you've got total oversight of the field of operations including clearly demarcated areas to which you've told civilians to move...).

Which doesn't change that IDF bombs are falling in 'safe zones', to which innocent people were herded.

@CaterhamReconstituted you actually made the claim repeatedly that it doesn't happen.

I need to head out, but here's an early article from the BBC showing that there were concerns from very early on...https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67264703

If you search online, you can easily find more articles and analyses.

I'm not going to share the photos sent to me as firstly, I wouldn't do that to my friend and their family and secondly I don't think many people want to see photos of a toddler with shrapnel in their face.

Thanks. I’m heading out too actually. I’ve seen the claims about attacks on safe zones. Much of it is unclear at best. International law differentiates between safe zones and war zones. The two can be blurred when you have an enemy like Hamas who have an extensive network of tunnels under the Strip and will use their own civilians as human shields. There is no convincing evidence that Israel has asked civilians to move to an area so it can then better murder them there. Hamas and other anti-Israel outlets have claimed this but they have a vested interest in doing so.

I don't have a tiktok account, sorry to disappoint.

Are you claiming that the Palestinians have never agreed to recognise Israel?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Palestine_Liberation_Organization_letters_of_recognition

The Letters of Mutual Recognition were exchanged between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization on 9 September 1993. In their correspondence, Israeli prime minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestinian political leader Yasser Arafat agreed to begin cooperating towards a peaceful solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. The PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, renounced Palestinian militancy and terrorism, and accepted UNSC Resolution 242 and UNSC Resolution 338. Israel recognized the PLO as a legitimate authority representing the Palestinian people and agreed to commence comprehensive negotiations for the Israeli–Palestinian peace process. These initial agreements between Rabin and Arafat laid the groundwork for the Oslo I Accord on 13 September 1993, effectively serving as its preamble.

Perhaps you got your degree before 1993.

Whilst Hamas have not agreed to recognise Israel they did agree to a truce and a two state solution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#:~:text=While%20initially%20seeking%20a%20state,1967%20borders%20without%20recognizing%20Israel.

While initially seeking a state in all of Mandatory Palestine, Hamas began acquiescing to 1967 borders in the agreements it signed with Fatah in 2005, 2006 and 2007[64][65][66] In 2017, Hamas released a new charter that supported a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders without recognizing Israel.[67][68][69][70][71] Hamas's repeated offers of a truce (for a period of 10–100 years[72]) based on the 1967 borders are seen by many[who?] as consistent with a two-state solution.

If you insist that the Palestinians must move on from the Nakba ( which you deny happened) then why are you claiming that Jewish people have more right to the land because they were displaced by Muslims hundred of years ago. If 80 years ago is ancient history which has no relevance to today then why do events far further back in history matter.

"It's hard to accept a nation who keeps killing your friends, family, neighbours etc and stealing your possessions" Yes, it is. Gaza alone has committed 2300 terrorist attacks against Israel and fired hundreds of thousands of missiles at them. I think perhaps 7/10 was a point where they'd simply had enough.

How many Palestinians has Israel killed? The daily persecution and oppression of the Palestinians over decades are acts of terrorism.

I don't have time to go through all your posts to point out where you stated falsehood. I think another poster has pointed one at you, the bombing of safe "spaces".
The offensive bit, for me, is the term "The Arabs". It does not recognise the different nationalities/cultures/art/music and so on. I think what you mean is "The Muslims" because it is what the vast majority of these different people have in common.
I also find the usage of "The Jews" equally offensive because that how the Nazis referred to Jewish people.