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Conflict in the Middle East

To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

535 replies

march10th · 26/03/2024 17:47

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

OP posts:
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17
XRAYTHIS · 03/04/2024 23:18

statsfun · 03/04/2024 20:05

The scale of Israel’s terrorist problem is similar to the troubles in Northern Ireland ???

The IRA killed 1700 people over 25 years. That included roughly 1000 members of the British security forces and 500–644 civilians.

Hamas killed 1200 in one day, mostly civilians.

And even that doesn't tell the whole story: the UK population is 10 times bigger than Israel's. So in terms of the impact on the population, it's the equivalent to us having 12,000 people killed.

I'm pretty sure the UK would have responded pretty strongly if the IRA had raped, tortured and slaughtered 12,000 Brits in a single day. And taken 2000 more hostage, including children, the elderly, ill and injured. That's the proportional number. The equivalent would be everyone living in the town of Glastonbury being brutally slaughtered - plus an extra 4000 visitors. (Not the festival, which has far more people, but the quirky pacifist town).

I really don't think the UK government would have just accepted that.

The minimising of hamas killing spree is off the scale. Comparing to the IRA killing over 25 years. Good grief. What's the point in even bothering to reply to some of these ridiculous comparisons.

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 23:28

Nads0622 · 03/04/2024 22:31

There’s many witness reports that state that health workers and journalists are being targeted. Netanyahu held a map up of Israel in September that clearly showed Israel over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Genocide of the Palestinians has always been his plan .He made it clear he wanted that land and several Israeli politicians have stated they want the destruction of all Palestinians so by your reasoning does that give the Palestinians the right to anihalate Israel as Israel has called for the destruction of all Palestinians
. It’s never ever ever acceptable to kill an innocent civilian and I struggle to comprehend how Israel supporters are so comfortable with the slaughter of 15000 children. It really doesn’t paint you in a good light . I don’t think you appreciate how genocidal your post sounds !!!!

Israel is fighting a war against an enemy who are explicitly committed to the annihilation of the Jewish people. That is a genocidal aim. The defence against this isn’t.

There is no moral comparison between the deliberate slaughter of people because of they were Jews and the inadvertent killing of innocent civilians in defending yourself against a genocidal enemy who do not care about the lives of their own people, who welcome death, and will deliberately place their rocket launchers on the backs of children, because they know that any accidental civilian death in response can be used as a propaganda weapon against the enemy. Hamas cares about killing Jews, not about protecting its own people.

Israel do not deliberately kill health workers and journalists. Israel has never called for the destruction of all Palestinians .

XRAYTHIS · 03/04/2024 23:28

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 18:40

You're skipping out an awful lot of fairly important information. Arafat briefly went along with negotiations and then backed out. He rejected the offer made to him by Ehud Barak based on a two-state solution and declined to negotiate for an alternative plan. So your half of the story doesn't mean much as it never materialised. Clinton said it was a waste of time!

The movements Israel made for peace were fruitless. Disengaging Gaza was a huge concession, and the response they got was Hamas. Bombs fired at them within a few weeks of leaving, and declarations of imminent annihilation which have not stopped since. This is hardly a sign people want peace with you, is it?

Whilst I was hopeful Hamas were not completely stupid and might see the best thing to do was move forwards in peace, they had clearly instead spent literally years planning this horrific terror attack which they would have been fully aware would kill any peace negotiations for years, perhaps even forever. And they have since gone on live television and stated openly they'd use a two state solution to plot a takeover and annihilation of Israel.

I don't deny the "Nakba" happened. I deny it's uniqueness. The same happened to Jews and many other people, including my own family. In fact I understate, because unlike the dispossession of most people's, this occurred at least partly because Palestinians chose to launch a war and then lost. The Nakba is in effect a very long grieving period for losing a war and being unable to accept the consequences like every other country on the planet in history.

The people who did not want to murder Jews and throw them in the sea stayed put and were made Israeli citizens. My family would have loved to be allowed to stay and be citizens of the countries where they'd lived for generations - but no such option was given, so excuse me if I don't join your bandwagon in believing this sad event was somehow so terrible that no one can possibly move on.

I do not believe Jewish people have "more right". I believe they have equal right. What was once Israel is now no longer Israel. Parts of it are in Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Jews are not murdering everyone to get it back. They accepted part of the land, and Palestinians had to accept part of it too. That is the choice people need to make, unless they want to fight to the death for it - and if they choose that then what do you want? Israel to commit suicide and just let them have it?

The fact is that Muslims took over this land and they implemented Islamic rule, which included making all people who were NOT Muslim dhimmi, subordinate to Muslims in a legal and very real sense. They have a certain way of life and living and certain belief systems that link their politics / law to their religious beliefs. And that's fine. What is NOT fine is to force with guns and bombs that all indigenous people succumb to this.

Palestine, has one of the most fundamentalist populations on Earth, with only Afghanistan and Pakistan scoring higher on the scales of religious piety. They almost all believe that homosexuality should be illegal for example. And that's up to them, but they cannot force ALL people to live this way.

Jews are indigenous to Israel. The Mosque is literally built ON TOP OF the Temple. It is their home too. And now they have a tiny piece of it (certainly not all) to rule themselves as they wish to live. They want western democracy and liberalism. They want freedoms. They want a country where Jews, Christians and Muslims are equal under law. They want democracy. They want music festivals where women dance in tiny clothes.

Why should they not be allowed this independence? The entire middle east simple does not belong to Muslims. Other people were there first and have just as much right to live THEIR belief system and THEIR way of life on those lands. It's as simple as that.

Palestinians were given 80% of the land by the Peel commission. They refused it. They were given 50% of the land by the UN. They refused it. Nothing other than 100% of the land is acceptable to them and it seems to me that most people just think "well just give it to them".

No. That isn't what justice or fairness looks like, they must share, just like everyone else had to.

I think people brush this aside.

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 23:35

CaterhamReconstituted · 03/04/2024 23:28

Israel is fighting a war against an enemy who are explicitly committed to the annihilation of the Jewish people. That is a genocidal aim. The defence against this isn’t.

There is no moral comparison between the deliberate slaughter of people because of they were Jews and the inadvertent killing of innocent civilians in defending yourself against a genocidal enemy who do not care about the lives of their own people, who welcome death, and will deliberately place their rocket launchers on the backs of children, because they know that any accidental civilian death in response can be used as a propaganda weapon against the enemy. Hamas cares about killing Jews, not about protecting its own people.

Israel do not deliberately kill health workers and journalists. Israel has never called for the destruction of all Palestinians .

Really? The IDF don't execute healthcare workers?

Yay. I guess my friends who were shot dead at Al-Shifa must just be playing a naughty trick on me then.

CaterhamReconstituted · 04/04/2024 00:10

Scirocco · 03/04/2024 23:35

Really? The IDF don't execute healthcare workers?

Yay. I guess my friends who were shot dead at Al-Shifa must just be playing a naughty trick on me then.

The same Al-Shifa where Hamas and Islamic Jihad are based?

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2024 00:20

XRAYTHIS · 03/04/2024 23:18

The minimising of hamas killing spree is off the scale. Comparing to the IRA killing over 25 years. Good grief. What's the point in even bothering to reply to some of these ridiculous comparisons.

The minimising of the IDF killing spree by the IDF and the Israeli government ….

  • 32000 Palestinians killed, mostly women and children, 75,000 injured, countless more still buried
  • Aid workers targeted and killed
  • 95 Journalists targeted and killed
  • Many very, very young little girls and boys carefully shot in the head by brave IDF soldiers.

……all in six months, could be said to be off the scale.

Talking about proportions, given how small Gaza is, what number of deaths would this be according to a proportional equation were this not Gaza but London? Something like 150,000 dead most of whom would be women and children, all within six months?

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 00:21

CaterhamReconstituted · 04/04/2024 00:10

The same Al-Shifa where Hamas and Islamic Jihad are based?

The Al-Shifa hospital. Where, bizarrely, healthcare workers were trying to save lives.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2024 00:27

CaterhamReconstituted · 04/04/2024 00:10

The same Al-Shifa where Hamas and Islamic Jihad are based?

The whole of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but no doctors or nurses, porters or other ancillary workers? Really?

No women and children sheltering in the compound? Really?

What were those little hands and feet of little tank-run over bodies doing sticking up out of the sand? Were they Hamas? Were the doctors dead shot with their hands behind their backs Hamas?

The IDF had a two week killing spree.

Minymile · 04/04/2024 00:27

LemonyTicket · 03/04/2024 19:40

Israel has a military of about 160k. It's a small country, that was not at war. Many are aged 18 - 21 and work in jobs such as office assistants, teachers, interpreters or maintenance roles. Many of those very brave young people went to defend their country after it was invaded and many of their people were murdered and kidnapped.

Hamas strapped suicide vests to orphaned 15 years olds in exchange for money and promises of 72 virgins.

I am sure this is completely the same thing :)

Orphaned kids and 72 virgins!! …didn’t you just complain about another MNs so called conspiracy stories!

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2024 00:31

Minymile · 04/04/2024 00:27

Orphaned kids and 72 virgins!! …didn’t you just complain about another MNs so called conspiracy stories!

Well the IDF has certainly created more orphans who will know who destroyed their parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles and siblings.

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 00:31

CaterhamReconstituted · 04/04/2024 00:10

The same Al-Shifa where Hamas and Islamic Jihad are based?

Are you attempting to imply something here?

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 00:39

Nads0622 · 03/04/2024 22:31

There’s many witness reports that state that health workers and journalists are being targeted. Netanyahu held a map up of Israel in September that clearly showed Israel over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Genocide of the Palestinians has always been his plan .He made it clear he wanted that land and several Israeli politicians have stated they want the destruction of all Palestinians so by your reasoning does that give the Palestinians the right to anihalate Israel as Israel has called for the destruction of all Palestinians
. It’s never ever ever acceptable to kill an innocent civilian and I struggle to comprehend how Israel supporters are so comfortable with the slaughter of 15000 children. It really doesn’t paint you in a good light . I don’t think you appreciate how genocidal your post sounds !!!!

It's irrelevant what Netanyahu held up on a map. He didn't start a war. Hamas did.

It's infuriating really. These people plan a horrific act of war for years, enact it, live stream themselves doing it, go on TV and say they enjoyed it and plan to do it again and again and that they fully intend to kill all Jews and they've had Israeli hostages in their dungeons for months and your response is "It was always Netenyahus plan to genocide Palestinians"

🤔

It's the most desperate clutching to try and reverse blame. Whatever several Israeli politicians wanted is pretty irrelevant. Because they didn't start the war, or jump into the bodies of the men who committed 7/10 and force them to do it. That was entirely THEIR plan and THEIR decision.

And it is indeed completely unacceptable to kill civilians, which is why I want Hamas stopped, so they can never do it again.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 00:48

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2024 00:20

The minimising of the IDF killing spree by the IDF and the Israeli government ….

  • 32000 Palestinians killed, mostly women and children, 75,000 injured, countless more still buried
  • Aid workers targeted and killed
  • 95 Journalists targeted and killed
  • Many very, very young little girls and boys carefully shot in the head by brave IDF soldiers.

……all in six months, could be said to be off the scale.

Talking about proportions, given how small Gaza is, what number of deaths would this be according to a proportional equation were this not Gaza but London? Something like 150,000 dead most of whom would be women and children, all within six months?

How do you figure this "mostly women and children" line is possibly true?

Even if you believe everything Hamas says (which is insane, but fine) then they're saying:

32000 people have died

Mostly women and children.

That would mean AT LEAST 16,001 of those was a woman or child.

12,000 combatants have been killed.

So that leaves about 4000 civilian men?

So somehow in this conflict a woman or child has a 4x higher chance of being killed as a man?

The population is 50/50 male to female.

How is that statistically possible?

Has Israel got women-seeking missiles? Do Gazan men have Captain Americas magic shield?

I just do not get how people just swallow these lines which not only make no sense but are probably statistically impossible

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 01:00

The Lancet (a rather reputable medical journal) published an article in December that found close correlation between mortality data in previous conflicts provided by Gaza's health ministry and UN analyses of deaths in the same conflicts. Obviously, if someone's starting point is that they don't believe either source, this probably won't change their mind.

Current figures sit at:

At least 32,975 confirmed deaths.
More than 13,000 of these are children, and 8,400 are women.

More than 75,577 people are documented to have been injured. Those injuries include life-changing injuries such as traumatic amputations and severe burns.

More than 8,000 are missing.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 01:03

Minymile · 04/04/2024 00:27

Orphaned kids and 72 virgins!! …didn’t you just complain about another MNs so called conspiracy stories!

Err, no, I just read the news. Images included of an example of exactly what I'm talking about. If you care to learn more, just Google :)

I don't lie. Nor do I make stuff up.

To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?
To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?
LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 01:05

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2024 00:31

Well the IDF has certainly created more orphans who will know who destroyed their parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles and siblings.

Well WWII created 15 million orphans. None of which became child suicide bombers 🙄

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 01:07

Based on those figures, there is a closer resemblance to the male:female ratio of the general population than tends to be seen in conflicts.

Usually, when targeting combatants, a greater majority of casualties will be men (potentially also boys in their mid/late teens), because the majority of combatants are usually men. That's not what these figures suggest is happening here.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 01:12

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 01:00

The Lancet (a rather reputable medical journal) published an article in December that found close correlation between mortality data in previous conflicts provided by Gaza's health ministry and UN analyses of deaths in the same conflicts. Obviously, if someone's starting point is that they don't believe either source, this probably won't change their mind.

Current figures sit at:

At least 32,975 confirmed deaths.
More than 13,000 of these are children, and 8,400 are women.

More than 75,577 people are documented to have been injured. Those injuries include life-changing injuries such as traumatic amputations and severe burns.

More than 8,000 are missing.

How is that statistically possible?

13000 children
8400 women
12,000 combatants

So -1000 civilian men?

Or even if we completely ignore Israel's claim of 12000 dead combatants and go with the terrorists number of 6000 then you're still claiming a child is 3x more likely to gave been killed than a man, and a woman almost twice as likely?

This is simply poppycock, whatever the lancet say this is clearly complete lies! Any logical person must see that.

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 01:22

32,975 deaths.
Of which 13,000 are children.
Leaves 19,975 deaths of adults.
Of which 8,000 are women, meaning 11,975 are men.

Which is not far off the population distribution.

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 01:46

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 01:22

32,975 deaths.
Of which 13,000 are children.
Leaves 19,975 deaths of adults.
Of which 8,000 are women, meaning 11,975 are men.

Which is not far off the population distribution.

This makes no sense. You're making no distinction between civilians and combatants.

There are 2.1 million people in Gaza. And apparently only 40,000 combatants.

Hamas say 6000 combatants are dead and Israel say 12000.

Even if we go with Hamas' data, you're saying the chances of a civilian man being kille is drastically lower than a civilian woman or child.

Even though there's the same number of men and women.

What possible reason could there be for that?

It's makes absolutely no sense and is clearly not true.

Scirocco · 04/04/2024 01:56

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 01:46

This makes no sense. You're making no distinction between civilians and combatants.

There are 2.1 million people in Gaza. And apparently only 40,000 combatants.

Hamas say 6000 combatants are dead and Israel say 12000.

Even if we go with Hamas' data, you're saying the chances of a civilian man being kille is drastically lower than a civilian woman or child.

Even though there's the same number of men and women.

What possible reason could there be for that?

It's makes absolutely no sense and is clearly not true.

The quoted figures don't say X number of combatants. They give figures for casualties, which can be split into men, women and children.
Definitions of 'combatant' may vary, so that's not a consistent demographic. For example, 'combatant' could refer to any adult male, or to any male over an arbitrary age neaning some would still be classed as children, or any man or woman holding a weapon, etc etc. Hamas and the IDF likely have different definitions themselves. But 'combatant' is not a separate demographic from men/women/children in that breakdown.

CatsKnowTheAnswer · 04/04/2024 02:02

@LemonyTicket thank you for your contributions - I've personally learnt so much from your posts. It helps provide a much clearer picture of the situation from an Israeli perspective and how we shouldn't take democracy for granted.

Minymile · 04/04/2024 03:27

LemonyTicket · 04/04/2024 01:03

Err, no, I just read the news. Images included of an example of exactly what I'm talking about. If you care to learn more, just Google :)

I don't lie. Nor do I make stuff up.

Err…no!
You do know Fatah and Hamas have a completely different ideology
They are not the same
Surely you know this
Its a simple google if you want to learn more, just Google.

Please don’t site Hamas as doing something when it’s very clear they did not.
Now if your example was Hamas, even though the example that you have found is from 2004 I would stand down.

But you have twisted the story for your narrative.

Alexandra2001 · 04/04/2024 08:09

And it is indeed completely unacceptable to kill civilians, which is why I want Hamas stopped, so they can never do it again

How is it even possible to stop Hamas?

Regardless of the rights n wrongs here, Israel is creating terrorist organisations for decades to come.

Also, why is there no rebuke from you for the civilian deaths of Palestinians? of foreign aid workers?

It all just gets put down, as Netanyahu said as "these things happen in war"

The targeting of the 3 aid vehicles was clearly deliberate, multiple drone strikes, carefully done to ensure no one survived, they even waited for the following (and clearly marked vehicles) vehicles to come in close before striking again and again.

The IDF have a shot to kill policy in Gaza & aid organisations are seen as legitimate targets as they are "helping" the enemy.

How anyone can say this will ensure Israel's future security is crazy, its more likely to see their longer term destruction.

Auvergne63 · 04/04/2024 08:30

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