To wonder how anyone thought what was happening in Gaza was ok?

[march10th]

I see all these threads popping up about outrage about what's going on, especially now the UN and the US have started acknowledging the situation.
AIBU to wonder how people didn't see this from the beginning??

It's been months and thousands of people have been wiped out. As an Arab with close family links to Palestine, I think this is ethnic cleansing, similar to what Western countries have done to the indigenous people of Australia and America.

We’ve been around this loop on this thread. Of course innocent people die in the war. This is a terrible but unavoidable cost. You have to weigh up the cost with the justice of the war. Israel are defending themselves against a genocidal enemy. The stakes could not be higher. Asking Israel not to complete the mission in Rafah would be like having asked the Allies to stop at the gates of Berlin.

Evacuation that Israel has asked for will ensure innocent people move to safe areas. Of course some innocent people will still be unfortunately and tragically killed. And no, Israel do not deliberate bomb safe areas, or deliberately kill aid workers. If this happens it is because Hamas has moved into a particular area, it is an accident or the claims that this has happened are anti-Israel propaganda.

@CaterhamReconstituted do you actually believe what you've written in the last paragraph there?

Despite all the evidence to the contrary?

I know what has happened. I was aggrieved to read about the World Central Kitchen workers this week. This was a tragic incident and there will be an investigation into it.

Do you actually think, just to be clear, that they (and other aid workers in other incidents) were deliberately, intentionally killed? If so, why on earth would that possibly make any sense?

"Do you actually think, just to be clear, that they (and other aid workers in other incidents) were deliberately, intentionally killed? If so, why on earth would that possibly make any sense?"

It would make sense because the Israeli Govt has told us quite clearly they want minimal aid to go into Gaza amongst many other similar proclamations. 70% of the Israeli population apparently do not want aid to go into Gaza.
So if you want to achieve that goal, you target aid givers whilst of course saying it was a mistake/accident/but Hamas etc. You deny furiously you are hindering the provision of aid in anyway whatsoever despite everyone saying you are
I also think the Israel Govt would think it would get away with it because they have got away with so much previously. The US tells them off but actually does nothing. Blinken has a repeat button, just saying the same thing every time . All words no action.

This time though it maybe a bit different

Thanks for the reply. I’m not sure where we can go with this, if people genuinely think that Israel are deliberately killing aid workers, even though the deliberate killing of innocent people goes against their moral code.

Not inadvertently killing them, or stopping some aid because of security reasons or because they fear that it will be stolen by Hamas. Or not doing enough to facilitate aid. These would be reasonable observations. But deliberately killing aid workers, the wicked little Jews. Not sure what else there is to say in this discussion. The gulf in the understanding of what is happening is too wide.

@CaterhamReconstituted there are plenty of human rights organisations who have said the same that Israel is deliberately targeting aid workers
Just this morning Biden expressed his outrage at the amount of aid workers killed in Gaza. Are they all anti-semitic?

"This conflict has been one of the worst in recent memory in terms of how many aid workers have been killed," Biden said in a statement "This is a major reason why distributing humanitarian aid in Gaza has been so difficult — because Israel has not done enough to protect aid workers trying to deliver desperately needed help to civilians.
"Incidents like yesterday’s simply should not happen. Israel has also not done enough to protect civilians,"

Israel, from the moment a partition plan was suggested by the peel commission, accepted Palestine as a separate nation. They also accepted the state of Israel without the full lands they had asked for and went ahead with the establishment of their state, Palestine refused the same offer.

There was never, ever, ever any movement to destroy Palestine, conquer land beyond what was given to them or to deny Palestinian independence. There has never been an Israeli government elected on that platform either.

The Arabs (and I say Arabs as it was the pan Arab league rather than Palestine alone) from the offset refused to accept any Jewish state and vowed from the offset to annihilate and destroy it. Then lost a war trying to do that.

Hamas have done the same, they are entirely explicit in this goal. They are very clear. No two states. No Israel. And while several Israeli governments have worked very hard to make reasonable offers of two state solutions and peace, every offer they have made has been met with refusal of anything other than removal of Israel either directly or de facto.

Those are the simple facts.

It is also a fact that the current Israeli government does not have any interest in an independent Palestinian state and has done almost nothing to promote that, and has rather actively made things worse. Netanyahu was finance minister at the time the choice was made to disengage settlements from Gaza and he was dead against it. He resigned actually.

Why? He said removing every Jew from Gaza would turn it into a terrorist camp that threatened the security of Israel. And, very sadly, he was absolutely right. Gazans, had they wanted freedom, independence and prosperity certainly had a very easy opportunity to have it, but their choice was all-or-nothing.

Do I blame them? Not really. I think they have been riled up to believe it's somehow just to believe the land is theirs and they must take it back. But such attitudes cannot work. Had Jews, or any other people, taken the same attitude, then war would never end.

Palestinians are not unique in losing part of their land. This has happened to people through the ages, and to no people MORE than Jews! You simply have a choice to move forward and prosper, or to keep warring. They have chosen the latter.

And, sadly, Israelis are human being just like you. There comes a point where people - even the ones who have actively campaigned for an independent Palestine - will just think "why am I bothering if these people will just not accept compromise and want to kill me?". So men like Netanyahu will be bolstered by the violence.

It is a vicious cycle, and it can only end when there is a Palestinian movement for acceptance of two, safe, peaceful independent states.

Gaza is not an occupied territory. It is under blockade by Egypt and Israel because it is essentially a danger to it's neighbours.

The solution here isn't "well just let them import missiles from Iraq and kill everyone". The solution is for them to stop doing that, become safe to their neighbours and then everyone can go back to living.

If you read all the posts @CaterhamReconstituted has written over the past few days it is obvious they are blinded by Israeli propaganda and if you challenge them it prompts to make more and more ridiculous statements.

This sentence alone gives you a sense of where their head is at
If people genuinely think that Israel are deliberately killing aid workers, even though the deliberate killing of innocent people goes against their moral code.

The gulf in the understanding of what is happening is too wide. That's about the only accurate thing you have said

Gaza is an occupied territory according to the UN and the majority of democratic nations.
it is essentially a danger to it's neighbours.
That is incredibly offensive and you are whitewashing Israel's role completely.

The solution here isn't "well just let them import missiles from Iraq and kill everyone". The solution is for them to stop doing that, become safe to their neighbours and then everyone can go back to living.
And you accuse others of gaslighting!

What I think includes the following...

That Hamas cannot reasonably be left in power. They have been responsible for a horrendous terrorist attack and need to be brought to justice.

That the taking of hostages and the reported ill-treatment of hostages is horrendous. Any path to peace must not forget them.

That there is a sustained pattern of conduct within this military operation which does not demonstrate a particular concern for minimising civilian deaths and injuries. There have, in relative contrast, been more targeted strikes elsewhere to eliminate key figures while keeping civilian casualties low. This, plus what is widely known about IDF military capabilities, suggests that the pattern in Gaza is reflecting intention rather than incompetence.

That there is evidence of civilians being ordered to evacuate to areas which were designated 'safe zones', which were then bombed.

That there are extremely concerning reports coming from multiple sources, of actions such as the deliberate targeting of civilians, the executions of healthcare workers, the destruction of hospitals and other critical infrastructure with no firm evidence to justify this.

That IDF soldiers, apparently of their own free will, are posting on social media about what they're doing, with sustained patterns of behaviour strongly suggestive of a widespread culture within the IDF operating in Gaza of dehumanisation and potential war crimes being considered acceptable. Long before this particular military operation, 'shoot to kill' orders were being given in relation to children who posed no threat and there were orders to maim people to leave them with visible, lasting disabilities. Long before this operation, people were being crushed to death with armoured bulldozers. Many of the components of this operation are not new, they're simply scaled up.

That aid into Gaza is being severely limited, by a number of barriers put in place by the Israeli government. It has always been limited, but now the lack of aid, combined with the destruction of the land in Gaza, means there is famine. Children are starving to death because there is no aid getting in.

All conflicts, especially in enclosed urban environments, are going to have civilian casualties. It is a requirement, though, for there to be meaningful steps taken to mitigate that and, where casualties are unavoidable, to have a defensible, evidence-based justification for it. There are international rules about what you can and can't do to civilian populations. Those aren't being followed and there is no evidence of efforts being made to follow them.

In relation to the WCK aid workers, it appears to be fairly widely accepted that there were three strikes, on the three cars, at different times. It also appears to be fairly widely accepted that the strikes were carried out by Israeli forces. Why and what processes resulted in this may never be determined as there is unlikely to be an independent investigation. An internal investigation lacks credibility, but will likely be accepted by other governments because it would be politically convenient to do so. People will have their own theories and opinions.

I find quite the opposite to be true. @CaterhamReconstituted is completely right.

Israel provide troops to allow open, unrestricted delivery of an average of 173 trucks of food a day (more than any conflict I can conceive of) to Gazan people. If they simply didn't care what the world though, they would not let the trucks in!

The idea that they would do this, only to deliberately kill 7 people trying to deliver it, it ridiculous. There is no logical reason for doing that which benefits them in any way, shape or form.

In order to believe it, you would need to be so possessed by the fantasy of the scheming, evil, tricky Jew of Hitler's imagination that you have bypassed basic common sense.

It's ridiculous.

If they wanted to starve Gazans, they'd just come up with reasons not to let trucks in. That's happened in every other conflict I can think of! Do you have any idea how hard it was to get food into Yemen, the Congo, Rwanda? it was bloody impossible!

Dulra: Hamas Charter says it's express purpose is to annihilate
Israel. It was elected on that platform. It's members and supported openly state on television, in journalistic interviews and on social media that their intent is to murder Jews and annihilate Israel. They have committed in excess of 2300 terrorist attacks against Israel and launched hundreds of thousands of missiles at it. They have targeted school buses, nurseries, discos, cafes and used their own children as suicide bombers. Countless weapons imports have been intercepted. And most recently they entered into a music festival wearing parachutes and butchered, raped and kidnapped hundreds of citizens in broad daylight, video filmed it around the world and then openly stated they will do it again and again.

Can you explain to me exactly how me characterising this as a danger to it's neighbours is "incredibly offensive".

Are they are are they not a danger to Israel Dulra?

@LemonyTicket how do you explain the 'settlements' and occupation of the West Bank, then? Or how Netanyahu is very proud of having, as he put it, "prevented the creation of a Palestinian state"? Or how about how Gaza was also under direct occupation and innocent people were killed for standing in front of ther homes and the homes of their friends. Doesn't seem very accepting to me.

We can't move forward by going over hundreds and thousands of years of different people carrying out injustices against each other, but we potentially could recognise that everyone currently in the Middle East (with a few limited exceptions of people who really need to be tried for their crimes) probably needs to find a way to live together and respect each other. Israel needs to exist, so does Palestine. We don't achieve that by occupation or terrorism.

It's a separate topic to me as that's not what this war is about. Hamas' intention, if they won this war they started is not "liberation" of the West Bank. It is to take over the West Bank and make that a terrorist state too. They'd kill Fatah or any opponents, just like they did when they took control of Gaza. is that what you want?

Gaza is not occupied. I struggle with how people work the logic of this. What do you think is right? Tell me? Would it be right for Egypt and Israel to remove the blockade from Gaza? Should they allow unlimited weapons to be shipped in from Iran? Perhaps serious weapons with the capability of taking out hundreds of thousands of people? Do you seriously believe with access to this that they would hesitate for a second to use it?

Can you explain to me how you think that would benefit anyone? There would be a war still, albeit likely a far worse one with a heck of a lot more than 30,000 dead people. Would that be "liberation"? Would it be "justice"? The world was VERY sad when Gaza elected Hamas. Their goals and ideas were well understood, and it was a tragedy that they were elected, but that is what people chose. It was and is simply not possible to give them freedom to murder people. That is not justice.

You seem to not grasp the reality here that Hamas are not good people. They do not have good intentions. There is a reason Egypt has a blockade on them too. They have no intention of giving Palestinian people "freedom". They could do that now, but instead they deny all human and civil rights to their own citizens. They have no intention of making Palestinians prosperous. They could have done that, and instead they feathered the pockets of their own corrupt allies. They have no intention of saving Palestinian lives. They deliberately do all they can to get them killed! It baffles me that people cannot see this.

As for the settlements on the West Bank, I do not agree with Israel settling on land which does not belong to Israel on principle. However, I DO think that as Muslims are allowed to live freely, equally, and safely in Israel that it is a great shame Palestinians refuse the same generosity to Jews. I think populations with no Jews in them are bad for the psyche of people. People must live together, and learn to be better at it.

I also think, as sad as it is, that if the settlements were not there, that the same terrorism and takeover by Hamas may have occurred on the West Bank. The reason Abbas has refused to hold an election for years is because the polls say Hamas would win. So there is an element here of security. There is observably a problem with these places becoming breeding camps for war and terror and that benefits no one. I do not think complete withdrawal worked in Gaza, and it would not work on the West Bank. Something bigger needs to change.

it is essentially a danger to it's neighbours.
That is incredibly offensive and you are whitewashing Israel's role completely.

I’m also interested to know how this is offensive, given it is run by Hamas, a terrorist organisation.

@LemonyTicket I've seen Gaza with my own eyes, I've seen what Hamas are. I know what they are. I will shed no tears for them.

Gaza was occupied pre-2005, I struggle to see how people can say it wasn't when there were 21 Israeli settlements there and it was controlled by the IDF. That's pretty much a definition of direct occupation. Even since the withdrawal in 2005, the UN, multiple legal experts and human rights organisations have considered it under occupation because of how it is still controlled and blockaded.

In relation to the 'settlements', this isn't a case of people wanting to live as good neighbours. This is people evicting other people at gunpoint, destroying their homes, killing their children. This is armed men threatening people, controlling where people walk, drive, open windows. I think @HeidiInTheBigCity has more first-hand experience of the West Bank than I do, so hopefully she may be able to come and explain to you a bit more about how occupation is not the same as seeking to live side-by-side.

I thinks it’s pretty obvious that there is a massive risk that the West Bank would just turn into another Gaza I.e. run by a terrorist organisation and from which rockets, missiles and terrorist attacked would be launched. It’s inevitable, really.

How does that concern justify occupation, particularly when that occupation pre-dated Hamas?

And why do you think it would be inevitable?

What is happening now can never be thought as 'OK'

what will happen next if perhaps an even bigger question. It is clear Israel will never accept a two State solution, and are hell bent on continuing illegal and cruel expansion, from the river to the sea.

How do you propose the IDF is going to differentiate between civilians and Hamas because so far everyone is fair game to them as it has been demonstrated time after time.
For example, the IDF had trouble identifying 3 Israeli hostages waving a white flag and speaking in Hebrew and more recently 3 identifiable ( the big charity logo on their roof was a big clue) aid workers 'cars, workers who had informed the IDF they were going to be in the area.

Another loop. Of course war leads to civilian casualties. But your examples are interesting - clearly then, the killings of these innocent people is not deliberate, if in the confusion and carnage of war Israeli soldiers are shooting at their own side.

Others today have made excellent posts explaining why Israel has serious security concerns which means a two-state solution is not currently viable. These arguments are never engaged with. Instead we just hear buzzwords about “river to the sea” and “illegal occupation” (even though Israel has not occupied Gaza for twenty years). What do you honestly think would happen if Israel withdrew from the West Bank? We know that Hamas are the most popular group there. Can you not see how unacceptable it is for Israel to allow missiles to point at Tel-Aviv and Haifa from the West Bank?

I don’t agree with the behaviour of all the settlers but clearly Israel cannot withdraw from the West Bank right now.

I am lost for words that anyone who has access to the internet can still vehemently defend the deliberate slaughter, by any means available, of an entire ethnic group and who also rewrites history to suit their narrative.
The Israeli propaganda machine is clearly working.

@Scirocco

Gaza was occupied pre-2005, I struggle to see how people can say it wasn't when there were 21 Israeli settlements there and it was controlled by the IDF. That's pretty much a definition of direct occupation.
Yes, it was, and hasn't been for 18 years. That did not stop the violence did it? It just escalated it by my assessment. Which is incredibly sad as they could easily have built a pretty great place if they'd chosen to.

Even since the withdrawal in 2005, the UN, multiple legal experts and human rights organisations have considered it under occupation because of how it is still controlled and blockaded.
I really don't care what the UN says. The reality is if the blockade had been removed, Hamas would have imported weapons (likely very serious weapons) and would probably have started WWIII or at the very least murdered tens if not hundreds of thousands of innocent people. That is who they are, and what they would do. So if the UN want to blockade gone, they should pull their finger out of their arse and stop enabling a terror state.

In relation to the 'settlements', this isn't a case of people wanting to live as good neighbours. This is people evicting other people at gunpoint, destroying their homes, killing their children.
I completely agree with you - I think these people are vile and should have been stopped. But I also think two things:

1. People forget the West bank is an area of active conflict, and there is some element involved of certain things designed for the national security of Israel.
2. I also think Jews should be able to live in Palestine just as Muslims can live in Israel. I think it's very unhealthy for it to be any other way.

I do not mean by force, or by violence or by bullying - that is disgusting - but Jews and Muslims should both be able to live equally in either place.
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