This picture of Israeli soldiers smiling for a selfie in front of a destroyed Gaza...

[changefromhr]

I know there are lots of pictures. I try to avoid looking as its just so awful but this one couldn't be avoided.

How sickening that the soldiers can smile and act so happy in front of all that destruction.

This is just another picture, from the thousands, that shows how the Palestinians and their lives and homes are seen as worthless.

I think it's a pretty normal phrase to use when referring to friends, colleagues, etc.

I object to disproportionate military aggression. I object to the destruction of Gaza and the killing of tens of thousands of people. I don't think that was or is justifiable or defensible. So I guess that means I meet your definition of anti-semitic then. Oh well.

I think it's a pretty normal phrase to use when referring to friends, colleagues, etc.

I object to disproportionate military aggression. I object to the destruction of Gaza and the killing of tens of thousands of people. I don't think that was or is justifiable or defensible. So I guess that means I meet your definition of anti-semitic then. Oh well.

Agree.

Well, war is intrinsically indefensible. And so is terrorism. Taking sides is normal. We are bound to disagree.

Re "disproportionate military aggression", I would agree with this comment from another thread:
I wonder if the people who demand that Israel, above all, be proportionate would be happier if fewer Palestinians were killed but were killed in the exact same manner as Hamas killed the Israelis?

There's a definition of 'proportionate' posted earlier.

What you're describing there would be more akin to vengeance. Vengeance is not justice and just perpetuates cycles of hate.

If a force's objectives in a conflict are the dismantling of a hostile military power and the release of hostages, then one might expect a proportionate course of action to focus on achieving those objectives. Instead, we're seeing casualty demographics inconsistent with this, attacks on 'safe areas', dismantling of healthcare and aid, the killing of innocent people who pose no threats, and to a level suggestive of war crimes and genocide.

That's not ok in my opinion.

That’s a misunderstanding of how the term proportionate is applied in this instance. It is about achieving the aim of the war while causing as little harm as possible. It is not about like for like numbers.
In this case the response is disproportionate because the aims could be achieved in a more targeted way, which would cause less harm to civilians. In addition the aim ‘to destroy Hamas’ could be more tightly defined so that not everyone who has had any dealings with Hamas, given that they govern Gaza, is immediately classed as a terrorist.
If you believe war is intrinsically indefensible then why are you on here trying to convince people to shut up about the injustices that are being committed against Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank (apologies if wrong geographical terminology here)?
If you believe it is wrong to disagree with the Israeli response and that this makes a person antisemitic, then you must believe yourself to be anti-Palestinian.

What a ridiculous statement in defence of Israel's outrageous actions.

I don't even know how that is a question? 36 children killed or over 12000 children. 750 civillians or 10s of 1000s? There seems to be some kind of sick ranking of rape and death on mumsnet that I cannot pretend to understand. I'm not sure how people who do that think people in Gaza are being killed? Do they imagine it to be swift and clean and painless? Do they not see the endless pain and mental torture that has been inflicted on Palestinians for the past 5months? All of these unnecessary deaths are absolutely appalling no matter which side of the border they happen. But if given the crappy choice of would I rather 36 children died than over 10000 children died, 1 baby and 1 unborn baby rather than 100s probably 1000s and 1000s more starving to death of course you would pick the lower death toll every time? Who wouldn't?

I object to this war, simply because it is disproportionate ( as defined by international law).
Denying the right of people to voice their opinions on the horrors inflicted on innocent civilians in Gaza is not for you decide. You might disagree with it, of course, but you cannot silence people.

In this case the response is disproportionate because the aims could be achieved in a more targeted way, which would cause less harm to civilians.

How, exactly?

Come on now. You can't possibly be this badly informed. Do you think indiscriminate bombing of residential areas is normal? Really?

@Dibilnik I don’t have the time to write a comprehensive response to that right now, but in short they could define who exactly they want to eliminate, locate those people and target them. Of course that would be a lot easier if they did that from the start as locating anybody now will be much more difficult! They have actually made it harder to achieve their aim! Unless they have all along been more interested in exacting revenge and displacing people than trying to minimise the risk to Israel. They’ve made the risk to themselves worse, it is stupid beyond belief.

Do you think that they had no choice but to flatten Gaza, destroy health services and withhold aid? Do you agree that it is OK to starve an entire population?

Also I am obviously a lay person with lay person ideas, but a quick google will show you that many other officials believe the response to be disproportionate and that it could have and should be more targeted. Even Joe Biden has requested Israel approach the war in a more targeted way.

I agree that a more targeted approach would be much better, but it's not that easy in practice.

Most civilised countries manage it. Don't pretend that there was no other choice here because that's insulting to us all.

@Dibilnik And many people who know far more than we do believe it’s possible. But sure, post a silly picture and then I’ll discount all their knowledge and everything I’ve read.
I see you are at Cohen’s third stage of denial, believing it’s awful but there is no other way.

I wonder if the people who demand that Israel, above all, be proportionate would be happier if fewer Palestinians were killed but were killed in the exact same manner as Hamas killed the Israelis?
@Dibilnik you said you saw this on another thread so I don't know who originally said it but there is so much wrong with that sentence I don't know where to begin. We have been told time and again that Israel's campaign in Palestine is about defence, defending Israel from another Hamas attack. What that comment suggests is that it is actually all about revenge which is something completely different. is this poster recommending state sponsored terrorism? Why do they think that would make anyone happier? Would this type of revenge make them happier and would they feel safer? Because none of what they are asking in that quote even mentions getting rid of Hamas just revenge, scary.

How is it been run over by a tank proportionate in your opinion?
and being starved?
and been blown over when you’re in your house ?
and being killed by a sniper when you are in a Christian church?

are these things normal to you?

What I'm seeing coming out of Gaza is some of the most horrific suffering I've ever encountered. And I'm not just saying that as someone with personal connections. I'm saying it in the context of my previous experience and colleagues' previous experience of conflict areas and disaster zones.

War is always horrible. It doesn't have to be this, though.

@ConnieCounter perhaps you could give some examples?

No, the comment is illustrating how preposterous it is to talk about numbers when discussing proportionality, ignoring means and intentions, as though we are comparing like with like. It is obviously not advocating such an approach.

Re antisemitism, what strikes me as antisemitic is not that people are understandably distressed by the war, especially those with personal links to Gaza. It is more the ridicule and hatred for Israel, picking over trashy social media as though this provides valid commentary, sniggering over events such as the IDF accidentally shooting hostages, etc etc. This is vile. Also the assumption that there are much better ways of dealing with Hamas, as though they are not spread like mycelium throughout Gazan society, as though you can just "pick a mushroom" and job done.

I've already mentioned that I don't have any particular "skin in the game" in this conflict, but I do in others, and I simply do not think in this way, even when it is my own friends and family affected.

Don't get me wrong, this is a tragic and horrific situation and I wish it were different. But blaming and ridiculing Israel strikes me as deeply unfair and dare I say the anti- word....

Amazing how some people still manage to make Israel the victim in this.

Amazing how some people still talk as though Israel has not suffered much, or not enough.

@ConnieCounter Imagine being so eaten up with hatred that you can't show a country that's suffered a terrorist attack any sympathy?

@Dibilnik
But blaming and ridiculing Israel strikes me as deeply unfair and dare I say the anti- word...

But what about the posts ridiculing Palestinians?

I am sorry, I haven't seen any posts ridiculing Palestinians. I must have missed them. I only dip my toe in on here now and then, and avoid most of the "Conflict in the Middle East" threads as they just make me feel frustrated and depressed.

If there are stupid posts/threads ridiculing Palestinians, then they belong in the trash, obviously.

Social media is wank, and MN's "be nice" policy, though I applaud it in the "Relationships" forum, is not equipped to deal with wartime propaganda/misinformation.

But blaming and ridiculing Israel strikes me as deeply unfair

How is it unfair to blame Israel for starving people when they clearly stated that that is what they will do. How is unfair to blame Israel for closing healthcare when they clearly stated that that is what they will do.

I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. This was stated just after Oct 7. Israel have deliberately and methodically set about starving and denying the people of Gaza pretty much everything despite their responsibilities towards them as illegal occupiers, they have even gone as far as trying to close down aid agencies. As Ireland Tánaiste said just a few days ago International humanitarian law is unambiguous – Israel as occupying power must protect civilians & ensure basic services.

Who else is to blame for this blatant and purposeful breach of International law and attack on Gazas civillians if not Israel?