Netanyahu rules out two state solution

[ConnieCounter]

Netanyahu rejects a Palestinian state. Surprise surprise.

What is his plan for Gaza?

Resettle with Israeli settlements? Return to continued Israeli occupation?

How can the US, UK, EU and others continue to support this war when they claim to be in favour of a two state solution?

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d?taid=65a95f27cc8ea90001513093&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

@stormy4319trevor hey stormy, I am well, thank you. I actually just posted that on another thread but perhaps this one is better suited for it. Yes I read that today which I thought was both disappointing and counter productive, as it's clear that such a proposal would never be accepted by the Palestinians or most other states who are calling for a two state solution.

@Parkingt111 It sounds unrealistic, also it doesn't even exist yet and people are dying now. It's also illegal to displace people, I thought. I almost wonder what the minister was thinking presenting such an unrealistic plan, knowing it would be dismissed quickly. And how would they move everyone out, while making sure there were no Hamas operatives amongst them. And how will the population support themselves there, and won't they most likely make their way to Europe as refugees, causing more suffering and displacement? I did hear ages ago that there was discussion of opening sea routes to Europe so that the Gazans would leave that way, but not sure if I can find the reference for that now. Anyway, what a strange and disturbing suggestion this island is.

Sorry, I've no idea what you're talking about. And I have no idea who you are.

If you're going to personally attack me the least you could do is have the courage to tag me so that I actually see it 🙄

@Parkingt111

You and I have been on these posts long enough to have seen numerous threads on both sides designed to agitate and create polarisation and not to seek genuine explanation.

Posters with malintent trying to foster further polarisation of views is not helpful in trying to find a compromise or a solution. It needs to stop.

In general, when one finds oneself in the company of an intractable interlocutor, the only option is to attempt to disengage. But what if one cannot? Despite keeping yourself shtoom, things are not as they seem, and this individual succeeds in bending you to his will.

At some point we recognize this for what it is: a power play.

It’s not just Palestine; the Russians are unyielding in their claim over Ukraine, the Chinese over Taiwan, Houthis over the Red Sea passage and so on and so forth. I will at least give the Chinese credit for consistency, but elsewhere in the world, things nobody gave a sheet about a few years ago have suddenly taken on an existential fervor. Or so they say.

The message is uncannily similar from wherever it originates: “If only the West would compromise. If only America would yield. Just give the Palestinians their land. Let the Russians have the Donbas and Crimea. Leave the Middle East, leave Africa. Go home and there will be world peace…”

Many in the West find Wormtongue’s reasoning seductive. The left, because it chimes with the Marxist dialectic of oppressed and oppressor. They are preoccupied with revolutionary fantasies of their socially engineered utopia. The right - especially in America - because they believe they can pull up the drawbridge and somehow their problems will miraculously disappear. Ignorance, in short.

I ask: cui bono?

We do as we are bidden, we pack up our bags and go home. Then what? Do we really believe the sun will rise over a new dawn of peace?

Will the Israelis and Palestinians find themselves brothers in arms? Will the South Koreans join their Northern cousins relieved that they are now free of American tyranny? Will the Taiwanese, like the prodigal son returning home, beg for forgiveness? Will the enemies of the West be satiated?

No. Of course not. Remember that power play I wrote about.

Wake up. Wake up and smell the ashes.

Ugh, if activists for a two state solution are using “wormtongue’s reasoning” to secure Palestinians some of their ancestral lands, then who are the Palestinians in your Lotr analogy? Goblins? And Hamas are what, Uruk-hai? Is Biden then Gandalf on a white horse come to rescue Nethanyu/Theodan from evil?

Okay, on a total personal side note (will try and post somthing more substantive going forward):

If Biden is Gandalf - who is supposed to be some demi-god sort of situation - we all urgently need to demand better leaders!

I mean, in my own head canon, I am casting Bibi for the role of Gollum ... and Biden as one of the Nazgûl. With "neoliberalism combined with hegemonic aspirations" playing Sauron.

It is tempting to fall into the binary thinking of Piers and view the war as a good vs evil conflict. I know you’re adding humour to defuse things a bit, but in all seriousness binary thinking won’t bring peace to the region. As much as Piers appears to be pro-American imperialism, I don’t think they realise how this approach has always failed because humans are diverse. Pax Romana failed and so will Pax Americana. It’s the definition of insanity and all that.

So while USA keeping its beak out of the rest of the world may not instantly bring peace, we already know for a fact that their bald eagle beak up everyone’s arse has definitely caused wars and destabilisation in many parts of the globe. It’s fair to wonder how would the world be if they left well enough alone? And practiced what they preach by allowing the UN to become a real democracy of nations?

@MercanDede
”It is tempting to fall into the binary thinking of Piers and view the war as a good vs evil conflict”

Is that all you could distill from my musings?

My interest in world affairs -including the ME- is motivated principally by self interest and the interests of my loved ones. If the Israelis and Palestinians (or whoever) want to duff each other up, that, in and of itself, does not concern me one jot.

It the (potential) consequences of these conflicts that are of interest to me.

@PiersPlowman11 ,

You are too cryptic!

Do you believe that there is some global conspiracy? Cui bono, in your opinion?

Also, man made borders, especially recent ones, will always be contentious. Is that a surprise.

The world just isn’t as simple as preserving the status quo at all costs.

Despite keeping yourself shtoom, things are not as they seem, and this individual succeeds in bending you to his will.

Its an Internet forum, not some kind of jedi training camp!

Maybe if you are finding people are making persuasive arguments you should open your mind to new possibilities!

@MercanDede Pax Romana failed and so will Pax Americana. It’s the definition of insanity and all that

Arguably, the Levant has only really had peace whilst governed by empires: the Roman empire then the Byzantine empire, then the Ottoman empire, then the ends of the Brirish and French empires until they tried to establish individual countries in the 40s. It's always the transition periods which are messy and deadly.

It seems to me that we're trying something a bit new in the area - trying to get countries governed by their own people - and that we're doing that because it mirrors what the Western countries have found works best for us and so we hope it will work elsewhere too.

Or maybe it's actually nothing new, and it always feels like this during a transition. It's hard to see clearly how your own time fits into the wider sweep of history!

@AdamRyan Maybe if you are finding people are making persuasive arguments you should open your mind to new possibilities!

I don't think @PiersPlowman11 is suggesting that anyone is influencing him/her. I think the suggestion is that other powers (Russia, China, Islamic Statists) are taking advantage of Western self-doubt and guilt in order to manipulate us into ceding our positions of strength: but that those other powers are manipulating is in this way purely for their own advantage. And that this doesn't actually benefit the people left behind (who they convinced us we were oppressing), since they are now at the mercy of different powers, who may in fact be more harmful.

But I don't want to put words in your mouth @PiersPlowman11 so if I've misunderstood, do clarify.

@Newbutoldfather

No, I don’t believe in some sort of “invisible hand” narrative. Israel and Palestine is not some devilish Masonic plot* (pending new information), nor are the Illuminati at work in Russia and Ukraine. Though National Enquirer may disagree.

However, I do not think it is too much of a stretch to presume that Russia and China have a mutual interest in unraveling U.S. hegemony, and that they might be using their proxies in the Middle East to help effect such an outcome.

@statsfun Yup. That’s the gist of it.

Well it was a very strange post with some interesting spellings. All a bit David Icke

Also very strange on a thread about the Gaza war as "the West" are not directly involved.

In fact one could say we are trying to use our influence to shape events to our own strategic advantage in much the same way as Russia/China/Iran will be.

To be honest my concern is and always has been with the people in the area suffering because of the conflict. "Positions of strength" of different nations is what causes this human suffering in the first place.

Israelis are 'people in the area' as well as Palestinians.

The US and EU are putting significant pressure on Israel to accept a 2 state solution. If we are being maliciously manipulated into pushing an agenda which will turn out to be harmful to everyone involved then that's certainly relevant.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say
"the suggestion is that other powers (Russia, China, Islamic Statists) are taking advantage of Western self-doubt and guilt in order to manipulate us into persuading our allies into ceding their positions of strength: but that those other powers are manipulating us in this way purely for their own advantage. And that this doesn't actually benefit either Israelis or Palestinians (who they convinced us we were oppressing), since they are now at the mercy of different powers, who may in fact be more harmful"

Yes of course, I was specifically including them which is why I used a broad term!

I'm not clever enough to understand all this stuff about "ceding powers" and who is pushing who to do what. A two state solution seems like the only viable outcome but then I'm in the UK so maybe I've been wormtongued 😂

Are there other solutions to the two state solution that would minimise risk to both Israelis and Palestinians?

Just picked up about Netanyahu's no confidence vote off another thread

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/no-confidence-motion-against-netanyahu-fails-in-knesset-with-only-18-votes-in-favor/amp/

This is what one of the opposition leaders (Merav Mikaeli) said:
“In order to bring our hostages home we must also be prepared to stop fighting” in Gaza, as demanded by Hamas, she said.
“You can’t keep muttering ‘Bringing the hostages home is above all else,’” she said. “You can’t keep on lying that ‘Only total victory will ensure the elimination of Hamas and the return of all our hostages.’ It will take a very long time to bring down Hamas, time that we do not have. And time that they don’t have. And we don’t have time to keep putting them in clear and immediate danger, day after day after day.”^

What do Jewish people on here think? She seems to be talking sense to me, but maybe that's because of my lefty-ness. I know very little about Jewish politics

They are all running out of time in Gaza, hostages and locals, in my view. I'm not sure anyone outside the area truly knows the hell that's going on in there.

As long as Netanyahu refuses a Two State solution, all help and support, military and otherwise, to Israel - should be withdrawn.

And Tzipi Hotovely, the Israeli Ambassador to UK, who is adamant there will be NO Two State solution, should be expelled from UK.

She is a far right supporter of Netanyahu- and should not be allowed to continue her far right zionism in the UK

@statsfun
« The US and EU are putting significant pressure on Israel to accept a 2 state solution. If we are being maliciously manipulated into pushing an agenda which will turn out to be harmful to everyone involved then that's certainly relevant. »

Would a review of situation and pressure being applied by the US and EU be harmful to the Palestinians?

@PiersPlowman11
Thinking about this on an abstract and systemic level is interesting. I agree with different power plays in motion- that is undoubtable, although as none of us are in the rooms where these discussions are being held- who actually knows the important details.

But- I also care about the actual suffering (not abstract) even though not directly affecting my family. There’s a human element I cannot ignore.

Tzipi isn't the only one in the current government, either. But I'm sure the UK government know 2 state is not going to happen, at least under this government. These people do meet and talk, and the previous careers of politicians are not hidden. UK say they would like the 2 state solution like I say I'd like to believe in fairies. Just something to say and a nice idea.