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Conflict in the Middle East

Netanyahu rules out two state solution

253 replies

ConnieCounter · 18/01/2024 20:58

Netanyahu rejects a Palestinian state. Surprise surprise.

What is his plan for Gaza?

Resettle with Israeli settlements? Return to continued Israeli occupation?

How can the US, UK, EU and others continue to support this war when they claim to be in favour of a two state solution?

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d?taid=65a95f27cc8ea90001513093&utm_campaign=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

A Palestinian woman flashes a V-sign towards Israeli troops during an army raid in the Tulkarem refugee camp, West Bank, Wednesday, Jan.17, 2024. An Israeli airstrike killed four Palestinians during a raid in the West Bank. The military says it targete...

Netanyahu says he has told US he opposes Palestinian state in any postwar scenario

The announcement from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu exposed the deep divisions that have emerged between the U.S. and Israel.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-news-01-18-2024-73d552c6e73e0dc3783a0a11b2b5f67d?taid=65a95f27cc8ea90001513093

OP posts:
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11
statsfun · 23/01/2024 23:47

AdamRyan · 23/01/2024 23:20

This is a false dichotomy of the type beloved on these threads Grin

I don't think either of those things are true. Personally i think Netanyahu believes Israel can only be safe with no Palestinians so I think he wants a one state solution. I think his view is probably that the Palestinians are someone else's problem, probably Egypt and Jordan.

That's only my opinion.

It's not relevant though because (as I said) I don't understand what more security could be put in. So Netanyahu demanding "more security" means nothing.

I don't think that if a 2 state solution isn't possible right now then some other way for the Palestinians to have a state right now must be found. Many people have lacked self-determination for very long periods of time.
What other populations of people are stateless? Are there other highly populated areas that don't belong to any country? I think Gaza is pretty unique in that respect.

I think that changes to give Palestinians better lives are more important. Who are you envisaging will make those changes, given there is no single Palestinian administration, Gaza is stateless and without basic civil functions?

You could well be right about Netanyahu!

But hopefully others are more reasonable.

It's not relevant though because (as I said) I don't understand what more security could be put in. So Netanyahu demanding "more security" means nothing.

It's not that they are looking for more security than already exists, it's that a 2 state solution as previously envisaged would remove all those current security protections, which the Israelis know they depend on. Particularly a militarized West Bank - that was the sticking point which Arafat couldn't let go of, and which Israel couldn't accept.

The Iron Dome wouldn't protect against rockets from the West Bank.

No longer controlling the borders would mean unlimited weapons going to a hostile army meters from their capital and 20km from their biggest city.

What other populations of people are stateless

That's true. But if living conditions were improved and the rule of law fairly applied, do you think it would be very different from being say a Hong Kong citizen?

Who are you envisaging will make those changes, given there is no single Palestinian administration, Gaza is stateless and without basic civil functions

I'm suggesting that this might be a better goal for Palestinian negotiations at this time, rather than statehood. Practical measures, rather than the abstract of self-determination.

PiersPlowman11 · 23/01/2024 23:57

@statsfun

We are in the era of social media and identity politics. People's understanding of complex arguments is abysmal. Most people grab the "book" and just look at the cover. A minority will browse the blurb; fewer still will read the contents. And only a handful will comprehend the arguments presented between the pages.

For instance how many Feminist activists today can claim to have read, let alone understood, Julia Kristeva, Helen Cixous, Luce Irigaray, and Simone de Beauvoir, for example?

Kristeva's famous interview "woman can never be defined", Irigaray's "The Sex that is Not One", and de Beauvoir "One is not born a woman; rather, one becomes a woman" can be said to offer the theoretical foundations of contemporary Trans theory, despite none of these women being trans. Yet we see push back from Feminists toward Trans. The notorious Judith Butler just took the ball an ran with it. Then we can credit Cixous for promoting a kind of gender essentialism.

All modern philosophical theory (as distinct from linguistics): Trans, Queer, Race, Post colonial, and of course Feminism have a lineage of ideas both lateral (they "borrow" from each other) and longitudinal. If you draw a timeline you can go back through French communist Louis Althusser (interpellation, the idea that we perpetuate ideology without actually being aware of it; it's the argument used by those who want to blame present day people for the ills of the past - collective guilt, if you will), and of course our Antonio Gramsci, who coined the term "hegemony" and who kicked off "top down" communism and the rich tradition of morally relativistic and incoherent cultural Marxism we see today.

So what am I saying? Theory is hard. Ball/boob bustingly so and even academics struggle with it (the dry, turgid prose of Heidegger, for example, deserves some kind of award). Activists claim to understand the arguments, but to paraphrase, "if you waded through the thoughts of most activists, you wouldn't even get your feet wet".

The combination of ignorance and an unwavering certainty in one's own moral rectitude is a dangerous one. But these are the kind of people driving public discourse.

/End rant

AdamRyan · 24/01/2024 00:20

Thanks for that stats, interesting post.

But if living conditions were improved and the rule of law fairly applied, do you think it would be very different from being say a Hong Kong citizen?
I don't think Hong Kong is great at the moment either. Hence why we have so many Hong Kong citizens moving to the UK. But it's not really a comparable situation.

FWIW I understand that the two state solution might make Israelis feel less safe, but paradoxically they might actually be safer if the Palestinians had self determination and their own state. There would be less of a legitimate grievance for extremists to build off, and more reason for Palestinians to root out extremists like Hamas from their government to maintain a good relationship with their neighbour.

Also I think the Saudi position is interesting as that provides some additional leverage into Arab countries and also some additional protection to Israel.

Polka83 · 24/01/2024 05:28

PiersPlowman11 · 23/01/2024 23:57

@statsfun

We are in the era of social media and identity politics. People's understanding of complex arguments is abysmal. Most people grab the "book" and just look at the cover. A minority will browse the blurb; fewer still will read the contents. And only a handful will comprehend the arguments presented between the pages.

For instance how many Feminist activists today can claim to have read, let alone understood, Julia Kristeva, Helen Cixous, Luce Irigaray, and Simone de Beauvoir, for example?

Kristeva's famous interview "woman can never be defined", Irigaray's "The Sex that is Not One", and de Beauvoir "One is not born a woman; rather, one becomes a woman" can be said to offer the theoretical foundations of contemporary Trans theory, despite none of these women being trans. Yet we see push back from Feminists toward Trans. The notorious Judith Butler just took the ball an ran with it. Then we can credit Cixous for promoting a kind of gender essentialism.

All modern philosophical theory (as distinct from linguistics): Trans, Queer, Race, Post colonial, and of course Feminism have a lineage of ideas both lateral (they "borrow" from each other) and longitudinal. If you draw a timeline you can go back through French communist Louis Althusser (interpellation, the idea that we perpetuate ideology without actually being aware of it; it's the argument used by those who want to blame present day people for the ills of the past - collective guilt, if you will), and of course our Antonio Gramsci, who coined the term "hegemony" and who kicked off "top down" communism and the rich tradition of morally relativistic and incoherent cultural Marxism we see today.

So what am I saying? Theory is hard. Ball/boob bustingly so and even academics struggle with it (the dry, turgid prose of Heidegger, for example, deserves some kind of award). Activists claim to understand the arguments, but to paraphrase, "if you waded through the thoughts of most activists, you wouldn't even get your feet wet".

The combination of ignorance and an unwavering certainty in one's own moral rectitude is a dangerous one. But these are the kind of people driving public discourse.

/End rant

Edited

Your technocratic and hyper-rationalist approach to this debate appears to aim to shut it down by claiming a superiority in thought. Democracy is messy but necessary to build a genuinely shared reality (perhaps you don’t care for this?), and it is a plurality of views and contestation that sustains it.

One way through this is to rely on our institutions such as the UN, ICJ, ICC and yet in this instance we see that denigration of the role they play by some, eg Israeli government, as it does not fit in with their version of the truth.

The idea of cultural Marxism is a right wing fantasy, and in the context of this war- whilst it may suit some on the right- I don’t really see it as a driving force for much of the disquiet seen.

PiersPlowman11 · 24/01/2024 06:59

@Polka83
Democracy, which you cite, means, in practice, we get to mark an "X" on a piece of paper every five years or so. Some of us will make this choice based on the candidate's manifesto; many more others will do so abdicating themselves of their critical thinking skills, and allowing their vote to be influenced by prejudice, whatever that may be.

In either case, that is where democracy begins and ends, for whatever party is in power will exercise its will to do as it pleases until the next election, where they will either be voted back in, or voted out.

As for the international alphabet organizations, since when has anyone of import given a damn? The U.S. didn't in Vietnam, neither did the Argentinians in the Falklands, nor did the Serbs in Yugoslavia, not the Russians in Afghanistan / Chechnya / Ukraine. UN / ICJ judgements are enforced by consent, and where there is none the response is usually along the lines of "Sorry, I wasn't listening." I suggest your faith in these institutions is misplaced.

As for your denigration of cultural Marxism, well on that point you are very wrong indeed. Antonio Gramsci was one of the founding members of the Italian Communist Party. At some point he got banged up for his troubles, and while in jail he started asking himself why a backwater like Russia had become communist, yet advanced Western countries had not. As we know, Marx thought that societal development was a process necessitating the passage through the capitalist stage before communism would be realized, and to that end he believed Britain a ripe candidate for revolution. As we know, Britain did not become communist - indeed, communism had a bit of a PR problem and the proles loathed the idea. Gramsci realized that the West would never undergo a "bottom up" revolution in the way Russia did, so he mused that communism would have to be imposed "top down".

Now, the man on the Clapham omnibus might not have been taken in by Marx and Engels, but the chattering classes were. And slowly, slowly, catchee monkey: communist ideals started spreading through what we would now call the public sector in what is now called "the long march through the institutions". So, why is this important? It is important because, unlike politicians, teachers, lecturers, civil servants, media bods and so on cannot be voted out. In a cunning sleight of hand, communists and their sympathizers circumvent the democratic process. Now I realise few professors would openly self-identify as Marxists (Terry Eagleton is one, Raymond Williams another), but openly holding what might be considered "right wing views" <sic> in education and academia would be career suicide. Even voting Conservative would be beyond the pale for some.

Thus, in most Western countries, the left own the cultural means of production. These are the people who regulate public discourse, legislate what we cannot say, or who we can criticise. These are the people who frame their entire world view in terms of oppressed and oppressor; those whose acts are justified, however depraved, and those whose never will be.

I can understand your incredulity. Cultural Marxism is now in integral part of Western society that, like the air, we do not even realise it is there. But, if one is prepared to do a little reading around history and research, if only in outline, prominent political figures, the dots are there waiting to be joined.

AdamRyan · 24/01/2024 08:08
Biscuit
Polka83 · 24/01/2024 08:20

PiersPlowman11 · 24/01/2024 06:59

@Polka83
Democracy, which you cite, means, in practice, we get to mark an "X" on a piece of paper every five years or so. Some of us will make this choice based on the candidate's manifesto; many more others will do so abdicating themselves of their critical thinking skills, and allowing their vote to be influenced by prejudice, whatever that may be.

In either case, that is where democracy begins and ends, for whatever party is in power will exercise its will to do as it pleases until the next election, where they will either be voted back in, or voted out.

As for the international alphabet organizations, since when has anyone of import given a damn? The U.S. didn't in Vietnam, neither did the Argentinians in the Falklands, nor did the Serbs in Yugoslavia, not the Russians in Afghanistan / Chechnya / Ukraine. UN / ICJ judgements are enforced by consent, and where there is none the response is usually along the lines of "Sorry, I wasn't listening." I suggest your faith in these institutions is misplaced.

As for your denigration of cultural Marxism, well on that point you are very wrong indeed. Antonio Gramsci was one of the founding members of the Italian Communist Party. At some point he got banged up for his troubles, and while in jail he started asking himself why a backwater like Russia had become communist, yet advanced Western countries had not. As we know, Marx thought that societal development was a process necessitating the passage through the capitalist stage before communism would be realized, and to that end he believed Britain a ripe candidate for revolution. As we know, Britain did not become communist - indeed, communism had a bit of a PR problem and the proles loathed the idea. Gramsci realized that the West would never undergo a "bottom up" revolution in the way Russia did, so he mused that communism would have to be imposed "top down".

Now, the man on the Clapham omnibus might not have been taken in by Marx and Engels, but the chattering classes were. And slowly, slowly, catchee monkey: communist ideals started spreading through what we would now call the public sector in what is now called "the long march through the institutions". So, why is this important? It is important because, unlike politicians, teachers, lecturers, civil servants, media bods and so on cannot be voted out. In a cunning sleight of hand, communists and their sympathizers circumvent the democratic process. Now I realise few professors would openly self-identify as Marxists (Terry Eagleton is one, Raymond Williams another), but openly holding what might be considered "right wing views" <sic> in education and academia would be career suicide. Even voting Conservative would be beyond the pale for some.

Thus, in most Western countries, the left own the cultural means of production. These are the people who regulate public discourse, legislate what we cannot say, or who we can criticise. These are the people who frame their entire world view in terms of oppressed and oppressor; those whose acts are justified, however depraved, and those whose never will be.

I can understand your incredulity. Cultural Marxism is now in integral part of Western society that, like the air, we do not even realise it is there. But, if one is prepared to do a little reading around history and research, if only in outline, prominent political figures, the dots are there waiting to be joined.

Edited

Sorry - but I really don’t think you’ve advanced your argument.
You dismiss democracy but don’t come with a better alternative. Do you have one?
I appreciate the difficulties in enforcing judgements international courts - but I note you don’t criticise the judgments themselves.
As for your long spiel about cultural Marxism - if it were so successful - why do we have such inequality? You could equally be speaking about the Illuminati and I’d be worried about paranoia.

Polka83 · 24/01/2024 08:26

And whilst answering your comments has been a distraction - is it ok if we mere dunces who happen to have personal views and empathy with those suffering in the ME- go back to the topic of the thread and a 2SS?

Auvergne63 · 24/01/2024 08:54

marmaladeandpeanutbutter · 23/01/2024 15:44

I said weeks ago that Netanyahu wanted to obliterate Palestine, and was yelled down by the right wish Israel supporters on here.

As soon as the horrors of 07/10 happened, I thought the same.

Auvergne63 · 24/01/2024 09:08

ConnieCounter · 23/01/2024 23:20

I am. I'm horrified that you think that flattening half of Gaza is OK and killing 1% of the population is a decent result and shows restraint.

I don't understand any other way of interpreting what I'm saying.

I really don't understand how anyone can actually think this.
I wonder if the poster would revise her opinion is this was 1% of the UK population and 50% of its infrastructure.

statsfun · 24/01/2024 09:45

@Auvergne63 I'm horrified that you think that flattening half of Gaza is OK and killing 1% of the population is a decent result

But obviously this is horrific Confused
Where have I ever said it's ok?

We were talking about the 2 state solution remember?

  • And that a failure of a poorly implemented 2 state solution could result in all-out war.
  • And that war would be even worse for the Palestinians than this one is
A is bad. B would be even worse. Let's not do B.
ConnieCounter · 24/01/2024 10:16

statsfun · 24/01/2024 09:45

@Auvergne63 I'm horrified that you think that flattening half of Gaza is OK and killing 1% of the population is a decent result

But obviously this is horrific Confused
Where have I ever said it's ok?

We were talking about the 2 state solution remember?

  • And that a failure of a poorly implemented 2 state solution could result in all-out war.
  • And that war would be even worse for the Palestinians than this one is
A is bad. B would be even worse. Let's not do B.

Agreed, you didn't use the specific words that it was OK. But you say that Israel took care to protect Palestinian civilians which given the carnage of the last three months is frankly offensive.

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 11:15

I see your point that Israel would be threatened by potential rockets from the \wB, and their need to be safe. But it does rather stand out that Palestinians in the WB have not been safe for years - from raids and pillaging - like Huwara, from night time break ins and arrests, from unfortunate killings and shootings, from harassment. So Israeli security can not come at the cost of Palestinian safety, as it has done for so long.

stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 11:18

I'd also add that a huge amount of bombs have been dropped in a short amount of time on Gaza. Some of them have a large area of damage and cause shrapnel injury. One can't forget there are 10s of thousands injured, many suffering life long disability, malnutrition and mental trauma. The damage is not limited to who has died @statsfun

statsfun · 24/01/2024 12:07

stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 11:18

I'd also add that a huge amount of bombs have been dropped in a short amount of time on Gaza. Some of them have a large area of damage and cause shrapnel injury. One can't forget there are 10s of thousands injured, many suffering life long disability, malnutrition and mental trauma. The damage is not limited to who has died @statsfun

The war in Gaza is utterly horrific. I am in no way minimizing the impact or life-long consequences.

stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 12:13

Thanks @statsfun It's terrible to see toddlers with no legs and wonder how they will grow up and where.

statsfun · 24/01/2024 12:14

ConnieCounter · 24/01/2024 10:16

Agreed, you didn't use the specific words that it was OK. But you say that Israel took care to protect Palestinian civilians which given the carnage of the last three months is frankly offensive.

When you're unwilling to hold an idea in your mind which is true but uncomfortable then you over-simplify your understanding.

When you over-simplify a problem, then your solution is likely to have consequences you didn't expect.

I'm interested in solutions that work.

statsfun · 24/01/2024 12:18

stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 12:13

Thanks @statsfun It's terrible to see toddlers with no legs and wonder how they will grow up and where.

Agreed. It's awful Sad

Parkingt111 · 24/01/2024 13:15

stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 12:13

Thanks @statsfun It's terrible to see toddlers with no legs and wonder how they will grow up and where.

I read on sky news today that reported from a charity that said 1 in 25 Palestinians have now been killed or injured
That is a horrific number

ConnieCounter · 24/01/2024 13:52

statsfun · 24/01/2024 12:14

When you're unwilling to hold an idea in your mind which is true but uncomfortable then you over-simplify your understanding.

When you over-simplify a problem, then your solution is likely to have consequences you didn't expect.

I'm interested in solutions that work.

I wasn't commenting on your "solutions" I just wanted to object to your characterization of Israel's slaughter of civilians and civilian infrastructure.

OP posts:
statsfun · 24/01/2024 14:22

It's true that despite starting this thread you haven't actually expressed your support for the 2 state solution, only expressed anger at Netanyahu for ruling it out.

Apologies for thinking that you were proposing it as a solution and might value discussion around it.

ConnieCounter · 24/01/2024 14:51

I'm not sure if you struggle to understand me or if you're only reading part of what I say or what. I am allowed to take you up on something you say in a post about something else. You're talking about a two state solution but you said something I find abhorrent as part of your point and I mentioned that.

By starting the thread about being upset at Netanyahu's statement I assumed it was implicit that I was in favour of two states. I didn't realise I had spell things out to that extent.

I am in favour of two states. I think that this genocide has ended any reasonable chance of this happening for several decades.

OP posts:
stormy4319trevor · 24/01/2024 18:46

@Parkingt111 I just can't see how people will be able to work, study etc with so many injuries and so little health care. Those poor children must all be so traumatised and so many orphaned.

Parkingt111 · 24/01/2024 19:28

@stormy4319trevor they have destroyed so much, so that after the war they will live in rubble. It's horrendous, not only the children but the adults too. I saw a woman fleeing Khan younis whilst carrying her dead son, saying she can't bear to leave him behind. Nobody was even trying to reason with her that he is dead now, everyone was just trying to escape.
It's like nothing I ever imagined to see

statsfun · 26/01/2024 07:59

Ok, @ConnieCounter I'll be more blunt and hope you don't get me deleted again.

You got angry about Netanyahu not supporting a 2 state solution - but without saying how you thought it could work.

You got angry at me when I explained why many people oppose the 2 state solution. How it could break down and the consequences for Palestinians as well as Israel.

You repeatedly attacked me for a statement which is true - and relevant to the consequences I was describing - because you couldn't bear to hear something which doesn't utterly condemn everything Israel does. Without in any way engaging with the explanation itself.

If you won't allow yourself to think about the complexity - moral complexity as well as political complexity- then you'll never understand why things are happening, you'll just continue to get angry about them.

And now I'm thinking about which word or phrase of mine you're going to jump on, in order to not have to engage with what I'm actually saying. So here we go:
1.Yes, it's OK to feel anger at the devastation in gaza. And also at other injustices towards Palestinians. And Israeli deaths.

  1. Personally, I feel huge sadness about the whole situation and a desperate hope that things will get better. And a desire to better understand it all, and think about how it could get better. But not anger. And I think that's OK too.

I'm going to disengage from this thread. I've enjoyed reading other peoples perspectives which have made me think about things in different ways, and I've shared everything that I think might be of interest to other people.

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