Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

Great post.

The UN is wrong.

From a Washington Post article

Israel Ziv, former commander of the Israel Defense Forces' Gaza Division, who headed the army’s Operations Directorate during the disengagement from Gaza.

Q: Does Israel still occupy Gaza?

A: No, of course Israel does not still occupy Gaza, at least no more than the Egyptians are occupying Gaza.

The issue here is that Israel does not have any involvement at all in the day-to-day running of Gaza. Unfortunately, until the ruling party there, Hamas, changes its policy of acting as both a government and a terror organization, Israel will insist on controlling everything that goes into or out of Gaza.

Plus

Q: So why do Palestinians, and many in the international community, continue saying Gaza is occupied?

A: Palestinians like to ride on that narrative because it is a very catchy narrative, and since part of this warfare is about the narrative and justification of the narrative, using that narrative — even though it is not what happens in the field — is still useful. And, unfortunately, many people in the world still like to buy this narrative.

Another narrative that is more correct is that Gaza is under blockade. This is partly true, but that is due to the fact that there is no other supervision arrangement, no satisfying international supervision that would allow Israel to open the gates for everything to flow into Gaza.

You can’t bomb a terrorist organisation out of existence, everyone knows that. And no that excuse is not justified for the slaughter of a population. Palestinians are not Hamas. Also Israel is simply creating more hatred and fuelling the fire for future terrorists.

The UK considers Gaza as occupied. If you go on any of the Gov.Uk sites that talk about Gaza, they include it under occupied territories

Just a general report that was uodated in Feb 2022 about business risk. The first sentence which is: The British Government defines the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPTs) as consisting of two separate land areas: the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-business-risk-palestinian-territories/overseas-business-risk-the-occupied-palestinian-territories

From a Washington Post article

Israel Ziv, former commander of the Israel Defense Forces

i don’t care what this person wants to say about Gaza. For sure he’s going to have a non bias opinion so I prefer believing independent organisations like UN

How do you know no one cares? Are you able to look into people's mind?
Why are you calling me and others " the usual rent a mob useful idiots"?
Why are we called anti semitic if we dare criticising the Israeli government? This is a serious accusation.
When people start to make personal attacks on others in a debate, in my opinion, it shows that they have ran out of valid counter arguments.

@MissyB1 "You can’t bomb a terrorist organisation out of existence, everyone knows that."

Quite, and to suggest Israel is doing that is rather simplistic and an insult to Israel's military commanders..

I get very tired of the allegations that Israel is going into Gaza on a 'killing spree' or going in 'mob-handed'.
Israel has a strategy, and just because we aren't party to it doesn't mean it's not there.
As with any war there needs to be a multi-faceted approach, which is what is happening.

I mentioned Iran in previous posts as they are covertly bankrolling Hamas. Cut off both their supply chains and you cut off their ability to wage war.

Iran is a country close to poverty due to historical US sanctions on oil exports (among other areas) and mismanagement,

https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-adviser-says-sanctions-will-bring-down-iran-oil-exports-bloomberg-news-2023-11-15/

More targeted sanctions listed here-

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-us-hit-hamas-leadership-with-targeted-sanctions

Iran has an unemployment rate of nearly 11%,

Their population was demonstrating in the streets all last year over the death in custody of Mahasa Amini, a 22 year old woman who was arrested and beaten by the Morality Police for not wearing a hijab. (Not reported on Western News outlets)
https://www.npr.org/2023/01/06/1147376644/iran-protests-crackdown-mahsa-amini

If another revolution takes place in Iran supporting Hamas may become the least of their concerns.

That's why we need to look at the bigger picture.

I think you, I and everyone else knows there's a lot wrong with what you've just posted and personal attacks on posters is just one of them.

MN HQ will always remove personal attacks if you ask them.
Simple.

Absolutely agree

Who is this rent a mob you speak of? Why are they a mob? why are they anti Semitic? why do you think they don't care about ALL children that are caught up and killed in conflicts across the world? where is your evidence for this accusation? You can't just throw out these derogatory inflammatory accusations

Making personal attacks shouldn't be considered at all. Just because the post can be deleted does not make it ok to do so. Simple.

I care as I happen to agree with him. The UN is not independent in my view as it has been very politicised and has its own self interests

They do indeed but Israel does not. It's all opinions and opinions do not make it a truism. Besides Cameron would rather not validate the UK position in words

www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/uk-foreign-secretary-refuses-to-say-israel-occupies-gaza/3104369#

Hi Parking. Do you consider this to the UK's legal position or a descriptor?

@Toggenburgsaregreat
MN HQ will always remove personal attacks if you ask them.
Simple.

Thank you for that I really wasn't aware they could be reported.

www.google.com/url?q=www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/12/10/uns-anti-israel-bias-must-be-addressed-for-sake-of-humanity/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiH-f_KlOSDAxVlYEEAHZ3KBxIQFnoECAYQAg&usg=AOvVaw0cHPhhYaYZoNAViisfm4Mq

That's from the Gov Uk website so I suppose you would have to ask them to clarify. As far as I can see, it clearly says that Gaza comes under the occupied Palestinian territories.

Israel is not the occupying power.
But you said it wasn't occupied as a truism

The article below outlines the different opinions and thoughts on the matter. There are a number of key countries that think they are not occupying and a number of key countries and agencies that think they are. Seems to be confusion within the Israeli government itself, so I don't think we can say emphatically one way or the other. The countries the majority of us are living in (Ireland for me, UK for most) do consider Palestine and occupied territory

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/gaza-israel-occupied-international-law/

Gaza is also considered occupied according to the EU

Yes this article is often linked in these boards. You are right - lots of different opinions.

I think many of us frame our own opinions as truisms to sound persuasive.