Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

Don't need to call them as it is expressed here

Sir Philip Barton, the top civil servant in the Foreign Office, defended Cameron, saying the use of the term "occupied Palestinian territories" by the UK government is a descriptor, rather than a legal position.

Just use the 'report button' at the bottom of the offending post.

If someone makes a habit of it MN will suspend/delete their account.

I would definitely agree with you that the West Bank is occupied territory with Israel building settlements in what is effectively some one else's country and should most definitely stop and then be removed.

However I would definitely disagree with you on Gaza being an occupied territory prior to 7th October given that the Israelis had pulled out completely in 2005. Now you could twist the definition by saying that Israel blockaded or sanctioned Gaza but this is no different than the blockades or sanctions against say North Korea or Iran which are certainly not occupied territories.

@1dayatatime it does seem to be a matter that is quite disputed. However currently it is the position of the UN and large parts of the international community.

The UN has demonstrably been shown to exhibit anti Israel bias so I personally pay it very little attention

An academic approach to examining entrenched UN anti Israel bias

www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/08/united-nations-bigotry-towards-israel-unrwa-anti-semitism-poisons-palestinian-youth/

@lettherebepeaceintheworld thanks will give that a read when I get a chance. I don't want to argue just for the sake of it, it seems that the current conflict has highlighted the issue of the status of Gaza and maybe some states/organisations will now clarify their position. Currently it is seen as occupied not only by the UN but many other states too.
It's interesting that Cameron didn't deny it either but just used the usual politician tactic of side stepping the question by saying there's no point talking about it further as currently it is occupied by the Israeli military.

And it seems it is not alone....

https://www.bnaibrithuk.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Spreading-the-Hate.pdf

Cameron as foreign secretary would have certainly confirmed it was the UK's legal position - if it is indeed . Not confirming is more significant than you think.

We need to accept that it is currently not the UK's legal position and the UN have proved themselves biased.

Is there any organisation that doesn't "demonstrably show to exhibit" anti Israel bias? The UN, Save the Children, Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders etc. Is there any organisation that's acceptable?

No, it's not clear at all as you seem to portray. Infact, I think what you are doing is the same thing that you have accused others of.

And I quote: I think many of us frame our own opinions as truisms to sound persuasive.

@Parkingt111 I believe that it is clear to me, regardless of my portrayal.

What do you mean by ", I think what you are doing is the same thing that you have accused others of."

What on earth have I accused others of?

Are you referring to the adage that our opinions are own truisms and we wish to frame these truisms to be persuasive?

This is not an accusation - it is an acceptance that our perception is our own reality and naturally we would like opthers to share this too if we feel strongly about an issue.

I very much support everybody's right to have their own opinion.

This is a forum after all where debate is encouraged.

So let's all go on trying to inform and persuade each other by debate - that's what we are all here for.

This is not an accusation - it is an acceptance that our perception is our own reality and naturally we would like opthers to share this too if we feel strongly about an issue.

I very much support everybody's right to have their own opinion.

@lettherebepeaceintheworld that is a fair point and I agree. Sorry if I misunderstood you before

You personally are a pleasure to debate with as we can agree to disagree and also question each other nice and calmly :)

@lettherebepeaceintheworldthank you 😊 and likewise.
I think sometimes in text things can be misinterpreted as we can't hear the tone. I'm normally quite chill and laid back in real life but I probably sound quite harsh and stern in some of my posts when I read back on them

Not very objective view:
Wikipedia describes your source as “ Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a non-profit think-tank and lobbying institute part of the Israel lobby in the United States, that advocates for hawkish foreign policy”
Among the team biographies
-served in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for 24 years as a combat commander in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip
-senior research analyst at AIPAC (powerful pro Israeli think tank)
-career Israeli civil servant official serving in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), Defense Ministry and Prime Minister’s office for more than 40 years

Unbelievable, so the UN is biased is your response to the fact that Israel is an occupying force? Please note Israel helped write the international laws and definitions that say that they are.

I doubt that.

Hardly an expert. An IDF veteran knows more than all the UN.

I didn't know that USA and others had cut off the supply of water or fuel in North Korea and Iran.

Yeah, amazing that legal economic sanctions are being compared to an illegal blockade/siege. Talk about trying to legitimise a war crime.

So Israel believes the UN and various charities are biased/prejudiced against them and so cannot be trusted.
Are there any organisations that are critical of Israel that Israel doesn’t consider biased? (genuine question)

I know, quite shocking.

To be fair, I think the Israeli government is confused regarding the UN. I was listening to a high ranking IDF member, explaining why they are going for Hezbollah in Lebanon. His answer was they were amassing at the border with Israel, contrary to a UN resolution! You really couldn't make it up!