Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

It's confusing why you don't see that Israel finds it hypocritical.

No-one is confused.

There is a UN peacekeeping force at the Lebanon border that's been there for years. (United Nations Interim Force).

UNIFIL's mandate is renewed annually by the United Nations Security Council; it was most recently extended on 1 September 2023 with the passing of United Nations Security Council Resolution 2695. It is composed of 10,000 peacekeepers from 46 nations, tasked with helping the Lebanese Army keep the south of the country protected.

@Auvergne63
@MercanDede

"Yeah, amazing that legal economic sanctions are being compared to an illegal blockade/siege. Talk about trying to legitimise a war crime."

"I know, quite shocking."

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I'm sure the Iranians and North Koreans wouldn't describe them as legal economic sanctions and would describe them as an illegal blockade / siege but then again they aren't Jewish.

So I guess one person's legal economic sanction is another person's illegal blockade/ siege, perhaps influenced by your own personal views towards Jewish people.

The lengths people will go to to deny Palestinians lived experience would be comical if the situation wasn't so dire.

Everyone except a few posters here (and presumably Israel) seem to accept the blockade on Gaza. It's a fact. It's not debatable.

@ConnieCounter

"Everyone except a few posters here (and presumably Israel) seem to accept the blockade on Gaza. It's a fact. It's not debatable."

++++

So would you describe the trade restrictions against Iran and Russia as legal economic sanctions or as an illegal blockade / siege?

The trade restrictions against Iran for example has taken a serious toll on Iran's economy and its people.

As I said one person's legal economic sanction is another person's illegal blockade/ siege.

The only relevant fact here @1dayatatime is that Gazans are subject to an illegal blockade.

Now you are perfectly entitled to express your opinions but that doesn't make them facts. Your truth doesn't make it the truth. Your facts don't make them the facts.

As I said one person's legal economic sanctions are another person's illegal blockade/ siege.

The Iranians would describe the economic sanctions against them as an illegal blockade / siege and indeed they have caused considerable economic hardship to its economy and people but this doesn't make it a fact or the truth it makes it the Iranian opinion which they are perfectly entitled to state.

Let's try some education on actual facts regarding economic sanctions against Gaza.

So in 2006 following the election of Hamas in Gaza the Middle East Quartet comprising of the United States, Russia, United Nations, and European Union – issued a statement, saying that "It is the view of the Quartet that all members of a future Palestinian government must be committed to nonviolence, recognition of Israel, and acceptance of previous agreements and obligations, including the Roadmap," and that any future assistance to would be reviewed
against those principles. These principles were rejected by Hamas which led to economic sanctions by the US and EU against the Hamas Government (Israel had already imposed sanctions by then).

So let's try another question for you: were the restrictions placed on the Hamas Government by the United States and the EU in 2006 legal economic sanctions or were they an illegal blockade / siege as well?

Also Egypt closed the border with Gaza in 2007 is that an economic sanction or an illegal blockade/ siege as well?

So let's try another question for you: were the restrictions placed on the Hamas Government by the United States and the EU in 2006 legal economic sanctions or were they an illegal blockade / siege as well?
I’m a bit confused that you keep refusing to economic sanctions. While a comparison could be made in terms of negative impact (because yes economic sanctions will have a negative impact and are meant to) I don’t think Israel has imposed economic sanctions rather it is controlling (most of) Gaza’s borders.

Also Egypt closed the border with Gaza in 2007 is that an economic sanction or an illegal blockade/ siege as well?
Yes.

@1dayatatime
@ConnieCounter

I'm just asking that we stick to actual facts and not Alternative Facts.

@ConnieCounter but it's obvious that people are going to have different perceptions over this.
You can't police a thread or you need to add at the beginning it can only reflect your own opinion (aka an echo chamber)

Facts aren't opinion though. Obviously people can have differing opinions. Some things are just facts, like the blockade.

So I guess one person's legal economic sanction is another person's illegal blockade/ siege, perhaps influenced by your own personal views towards Jewish people.
Are you calling me an anti semite? This is a very serious accusation.
Economic embargo is a legal prohibition. Cutting water/ fuel off is not. Look it up.

@ConnieCounter in your opinion.

@Fussandmisery

"I’m a bit confused that you keep refusing to economic sanctions. While a comparison could be made in terms of negative impact (because yes economic sanctions will have a negative impact and are meant to) I don’t think Israel has imposed economic sanctions rather it is controlling (most of) Gaza’s borders."

+++

That's an interesting point. Now every country has the right and does control its own borders including movement of goods and people. So on that basis Israel is entitled to not allow the passage of any goods or people from its territory to Gaza and vice versa.

But it would not be entitled to control the borders with another country namely the Egypt / Gaza border. So if the Egyptians want to send thousands of trucks a day across their border with Gaza then they should be entitled to regardless of what Israel thinks.

The issue on controlling sea borders is more complex especially when the accusation is that weapons are being smuggled in. For example the US Navy recently boarded and seized an Iranian vessel transporting weapons from Iran to Yemen, many would see that as legitimate. Whereas if they seized a vessel carrying oil from Iran to Yemen many would not see that as legitimate, unless it could be argued that the oil was destined for Houthi military use (which is pretty hard to prove one way or the other).

I'm sorry you can't accept facts that are unpalatable to you.

@Auvergne63

"Economic embargo is a legal prohibition. Cutting water/ fuel off is not. Look it up."

+++
But what makes an economic embargo automatically legal? The Iranians certainly don't think the embargo on their country is legal.

As for cutting off water and fuel, the Russians have cut off gas supplies to Ukraine and Ukraine has cut off grain supplies to Russia. Which one is legal which one isn't or does it depend on which side you support?

My point is that every one is entitled to their opinions as they should be but that doesn't make them facts.

B’nai B’rith is an organisation “dedicated to illuminating the hatred of Jews as a distinct and unique social illness” and has a budget of several millions of US dollars so it’s their job to publish reports like this.
I’ve read this particular hyperbolic report and looked at the some of the 44 supporting references.
I didn’t think that I’d bother with reference number 44 -( the Daily Mail )as I think the horoscope section is its most reliable offering , but I have to admit that I was fascinated by number 37. It seems that Scarlet Johansson stepped down as Oxfam's ambassador because she decided instead to promote soda stream, a company with a fizzy drinks factory in a West Bank Settlement. Nothing like a bit of celebrity gossip , but really I think that’s clutching at straws in terms of evidence for anti- Israeli bias on the part of Oxfam. ( Whew, I won’t need to send that cashmere sweater back).
Number 43 is the Huffingdon article about the “tragic and moving” full page newspaper ads taken out by Save the Children when 373 children in Gaza were killed in less than a month in 2014. Israel’s actions speak for themselves here so I don’t think it’s valid to accuse Save the Children of bias in this case.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/06/save-the-children-gaza-strip_n_5653426.html
I’ll spare telling readers of the rest- life is too short

Also Egypt closed the border with Gaza in 2007 is that an economic sanction or an illegal blockade/ siege as well?

It is decidedly odd that this gets so little attention isn’t it?

According to some earlier today (not sure which thread it was on, might not have been this one) it means that Egypt are occupying Gaza and are therefore responsible for the safety of the people who live there according to international law.

I didn’t think that I’d bother with reference number 44 -( the Daily Mail )
Theres just no getting away from The Daily Fail on this board.

Quite.

Screenshot is from the BBC. It states that Israel AND Egypt has a PARTIAL blockade on Gaza.

Not a full blockade as some imply.

Of course, Palestinians will ignore Egypt here due to it being an Arab Muslim State which Israel isn't.

What reason do members here who aren't from there have for ignoring Egyptian role have? 🤷‍♂️