South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

Many Israeli reservists have been told to stand down in January. This means the ground offensive is expected to get small for a bit.

They have alsowho have been told they will be called up again in February / March.

So that could be to do with Gaza again or more likely some think the northern border

Anyway I am not sticking about this thread but thought people may be interested

@SuePine69 it was called that by the Israeli military commander of the Occupied west bank aswell as former Israeli PM

Also as you only just checked it this morning on Wikipedia as you said maybe you can read more into it

I just really wish they'd make their minds up about international justice bodies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/25/south-africas-president-and-party-sow-confusion-over-leaving-icc

It also "made an attempt to pull out of the ICC in 2016 after a dispute a year earlier when then-Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir visited the country for an African Union summit. It refused to arrest him despite him being the subject of an ICC arrest warrant for alleged war crimes."

But when it suits, I suppose.

apparently Israel is not a member of the ICC.

Wonder why.

SuePine69

There is just so much wrong with your posts I simply don't have the time to address it all.

Your post at 12.42 reads as if you think that failure to express an opinion on all human rights abuses disqualifies anyone having an opinion on any human rights abuses. That would render us all silent.

As for your claims about the world's most moral army....you must be VERY selective about the news you consume. Murder, rape, torture and bombing civilians are all in a day's work. The children of Gaza don't have a countryside to go and starve in.

Your comments about the ANC are incredibly racist. You should read Long Walk to Freedom.

You mention the second world were as if no lessons were learned from the horror of it. In 1949 two treaties of the Geneva Conventions were updated and two new treaties were added. Collective punishment and starvation are war crimes.

If you want Hamas to sign an unconditional surrender (the way the second world war ended) you will have to speak to them. Unless of course you are suggesting that the population of Gaza achieves what the IDF hadn't yet and takes out Hamas themselves. I think they be a little bit too preoccupied with survival at the moment to plan to overthrow an armed terrorist organisation. Perhaps we should tell them that they have their priorities all wrong.

Excellent post for providing the needed balance.

They've referred Israel to the ICJ not the ICC.

Either way it makes no difference, the ICC prosecutes individuals not states and they have jurisdiction over all of the most serious humanitarian crimes regardless of whether a country is a member.

The issue of SA failing to execute the arrest warrant was being investigated but I don't know what the outcome was or if the investigation has been completed.

I do advocate for their equal human rights. When you talk about land stealing, it is true that settlers are taking land from Palestinians. The only justification the settlers offer is that God promised the land to the Jews. Apart from not believing in God, I see the Palestinians as just as much descendants of the ancient Jewish population of the land as anyone else.

The government of Israel is too right wing, too willing to support settlers. Part of the problem is Proportional Representation where minority extremist parties have too much influence.

You ask what Palestinians should do apart from lie down and accept them. What you don't do is have a futile indiscriminate killing of Jewish people, because that only helps people like Netanyahu.

Hamas has genocidal rhetoric against Israelis. Some Israelis have genocidal rhetoric against Palestinians. There will be segregation, there will be walls, the need for that is seen clearly after October.

If the Israelis can see that the Palestinians are like the Germans after 1945 and want to work for prosperity, democracy and human rights then most Israeli people would support them. If they continue to be like the Germans after 1918 and are only concerned about national pride and the return of all territory then there is no hope for them.

You seem surprised by the results of the latest survey.

One completed about a week before the war started painted a somewhat different picture. Hopefully someone with a better memory than me will post the link again.

The latest survey is predictable, it's a phenomena that's been observed many times in history regardless of how awful the government is.

Did you see the survey (just a few days ago) which said 82% of Israelis agree with "relocating" the population of Gaza. That's quite predictable too but maybe we should condemn them for supporting ethnic cleansing.

The victim blaming is pretty vile.

Please don’t fall for the very old trick of pro Israel implying support of HAMAS if you’re against the genocide of CIVILIANS

Bravo S.A

They've referred Israel to the ICJ not the ICC.

Indeed, which is why I specified international justice bodies.
South Africa has many allies that are non-democracies and dictatorships, that it has used its position to support on the international stage. Between that and the treatment of their own citizens, they have zero moral authority.

@WilmaWonka

You’re implying Palestinian civilians deserve to be killed which is hate speech and racist.

You are implying innocent children women and civilians DESERVE to be slaughtered in their thousands.

There were Germans in the 1940s who were trying to kill Hitler. They came close to doing what the Allies failed to do. This was at a time when their cities were being destroyed by the Americans and the British and the Red Army was killing and raping civilians in their millions.

Hamas and Fatah have been killing each other's leadership, throwing them off the tops of tall buildings so Hamas has many enemies.

“Anyone, any organisation, accusing Israel of genocide is merely spreading Hamas propaganda”

@WatTyler

Hate speech and accusing anyone of being concerned about the genocide as terrorist sympathisers or supporters.

I hope @mnhq is taking note of how anyone on here concerned with the killing of civilians in Gaza is routinely told by fanatical pro Israel posters that they are supporting terrorism or Hamas. This has to stop.

Lunatics! I don't ever recall seeing an Israeli strap explosive to their children. Hamas are bastards..oh and on South Africa, they're doing so well now, economically well, no crime..I'd love to go there for a holiday

@LoveParrot19

No you wouldn’t expect Israel (IDF) to strap bombs to kids or gang rape women as they’re a ‘civilised’ democracy that just bombs, starves and withholds water to their enemy instead.

Absolutely this @Green777 .

Thanks @HeidiInTheBigCity
Good for South Africa!

I'm struggling to see the point of your unsolicited history lesson but anyway....

Are you saying that Gazan civilians should try harder to kill Hamas fighters?

Or are you saying that Fatah should do it?

Tweet from Palestine’s ambassdor to the UK, Husam Zomlot

hear hear

Have you see the conditions and violence from Israel towards the Palestinians in the West Bank ? Hamas have already said they would accept a ceasefire then release the hostages, not good enough for Netanyahu though, he wants to have them released during the bombardment, which is obviously not safe for them either. Also, have you forgotten about all the Palestinian hostages, locked up without trial in their thousands, including children. Are they being released too ? Probably not. It’s all very one sided isn’t it ?