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Conflict in the Middle East

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

1000 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 30/12/2023 03:04

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza
OP posts:
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89
FOJN · 30/12/2023 12:07

I wonder which country would be "pure" enough to refer Israel to the ICJ?

I doubt such a country exists so presumably we should let the genocide continue.

Being a hypocrite is much more morally reprehensible than remaining silent when you see a genocide taking place.

Let's just get rid of the ICJ and the ICC and avoid the shame of being accused of hypocrisy.

There are children in the UK without enough to eat, are we allowed to say that starvation as a weapon of war is bad?

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 12:11

@SuePine69 do you have any idea how life is like living under the blockade? The mental impact of growing up under the blockade and seeing the high concrete wall shutting you off from the rest of the world?

It's pretty crap no matter how much money you give them considering they don't have basic rights and freedom of movement

And if you looked at Gaza before the war, there was many great buildings, complexes, Universities and much more
Like many other places there were parts that were more affluent than others, but the blockade strangled much of the economy

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 12:13

SuePine69 · 30/12/2023 12:01

Nelson Mandela believed in the freedom of the Palestinians. I believe in the freedom of the Palestinians. When Israel withdrew its troops from Gaza in 2005 many countries gave large amounts of money. That was an opportunity for the people of Gaza.

If Gaza had used the money for housing the people and developing the economy then Gaza could be like Singapore or Hong Kong today. Instead they used the money for building tunnels and stocking up on rockets and other arms.

It seems to me that the Palestinians are like the Germans after the First World War. The Germans then wanted to regain their lost territories and their sense of honour. That all changed after the Second World War. They forgot about territory and honour and chose prosperity, as well as democracy and human rights.

If you believe in the freedom of Palestinians then surely you advocate for their equal human rights, the cessation of land stealing / return of land stolen in the West Bank, the cessation of torture and imprisonment of innocent children and adults including women, the cessation of bulldozing of Palestinian monuments etc, the unfair segregation meaning Palestinians can't walk down certain roads, the ending of genocidal rhetoric towards them etc etc.

This is what Mandela would have wanted.

You seem to be implying they should just lie down and accept these things. (and no I am NOT advocating terrorism here).

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 12:14

FOJN · 30/12/2023 12:07

I wonder which country would be "pure" enough to refer Israel to the ICJ?

I doubt such a country exists so presumably we should let the genocide continue.

Being a hypocrite is much more morally reprehensible than remaining silent when you see a genocide taking place.

Let's just get rid of the ICJ and the ICC and avoid the shame of being accused of hypocrisy.

There are children in the UK without enough to eat, are we allowed to say that starvation as a weapon of war is bad?

I think you can guarantee whichever country referred Israeli govt to ICC (even Switzerland which is supposedly neutral) they would be on the end of a smear campaign attempting to delegitimise the country and everything that country stands for.

FOJN · 30/12/2023 12:19

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 12:14

I think you can guarantee whichever country referred Israeli govt to ICC (even Switzerland which is supposedly neutral) they would be on the end of a smear campaign attempting to delegitimise the country and everything that country stands for.

Absolutely. It doesn't matter who criticises Israel, there will be a smear campaign.

Its not that people have failed to condemn Hamas that's the problem, god knows people have done that until they're blue in the face, it's that Israel isn't getting a free pass on committing war crimes and genocide that some posters can't tolerate.

SuePine69 · 30/12/2023 12:20

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 12:00

@SuePine69 was there a ceasefire when hundreds of terrorist settlers spent a horrifying night burning the town of Huwara in what was seen as a pogrom against the Palestinians just earlier this year? What did the IDF do to stop it? Nothing, nothing at all
And how many of the perpetrators are in prison right now? Take a guess

Would the response have been the same if it was hundreds of Palestinians burning down a Israeli town?

This injustice, oppression and double standards have been going on for years
And tell me what happens when the same victims try to defend themselves? They are arrested and imprisoned without charge or trial thanks to the apartheid law that is used unjustly against the Palestinians

The settlers are scum and you are correct to call them terrorists.

In 2005 the Israelis forcibly removed Jewish settlers from Gaza when they withdrew their forces. They should forcibly remove some if not all settlers from the West Bank too.

It says on Wikipedia that one civilian died in the Huwara attack. So I guess that means one Palestinian died. This was after two settlers were murdered by Palestinians. How many Israelis were killed on October 7th? How many women gang raped? How can you compare the two?

FOJN · 30/12/2023 12:24

SomeCatFromJapan · 30/12/2023 11:43

Why is Naledi Pandor talking to a terrorist organisation is more the question.

Edited

Are you specifically concerned that it's Naledi Pandor or that anyone would talk to Hamas?

The only way I can see this war ending without someone negotiating with Hamas is if Israel manage to kill literally everyone in Gaza or push those they don't kill into other countries, leaving Gaza empty.

Someone will have to talk to them at some point because I don't think the residents of Gaza are in a position to organise an election and choose new leadership at the moment.

SuePine69 · 30/12/2023 12:32

FOJN · 30/12/2023 12:07

I wonder which country would be "pure" enough to refer Israel to the ICJ?

I doubt such a country exists so presumably we should let the genocide continue.

Being a hypocrite is much more morally reprehensible than remaining silent when you see a genocide taking place.

Let's just get rid of the ICJ and the ICC and avoid the shame of being accused of hypocrisy.

There are children in the UK without enough to eat, are we allowed to say that starvation as a weapon of war is bad?

"Being a hypocrite is much more morally reprehensible than remaining silent when you see a genocide taking place."

The point is that they DO remain silent when they see a genocide taking place. They are not interested when genocide occurs in the Darfur region of Sudan against the Fur people. Even though the Fur are Moslems they are attacked by the majority ethnic group. Men go into their villages, kill the men and rape the women. The children flee into the countryside and starve. IDF doesn't do that.

This African on African violence doesn't fit the ANC narrative of white versus black colonialism so they are not interested.

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 12:32

@SuePine69 ofcourse it's not a comparison at all and neither did i say or imply in anyway that it was. The example of the Huwara pogrom was to highlight the inequality and injustice between how the settlers and Palestinians are treated in the occupied territories and how this oppression has been going on for decades and its only now that people are finally speaking up
And the rest of the Palestinians had to flee the terrifying burning mob, but many homes and livelihoods were burned and damaged.
And what was the government's response?

The Pogrom on October the 7th was depraved and inhumane. There is zero justification for it.

DeeCeeCherry · 30/12/2023 12:34

Well done South Africa
Apartheid, genocide and ethnic cleansing isn't suddenly acceptable just because its Israel doing it.

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 12:36

And the brutal Israeli government response to it has been nothing short of inhumane too.
It is a frenzied revenge attack and a collective punishment on all the Gazans

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 12:38

SuePine69 · 30/12/2023 12:32

"Being a hypocrite is much more morally reprehensible than remaining silent when you see a genocide taking place."

The point is that they DO remain silent when they see a genocide taking place. They are not interested when genocide occurs in the Darfur region of Sudan against the Fur people. Even though the Fur are Moslems they are attacked by the majority ethnic group. Men go into their villages, kill the men and rape the women. The children flee into the countryside and starve. IDF doesn't do that.

This African on African violence doesn't fit the ANC narrative of white versus black colonialism so they are not interested.

Have a read of the Documenting IDF racism and torture threads. You will find plenty of links to reports of heinous things the IDF have done including rape, imprisonment and torture of innocent women and children, killing of innocents etc etc.

Regarding children starving - have a read of this:

Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza

People line up for bread at a partially collapsed but still operational bakehouse in Nuseirat refugee camp in Deir al Balah, Gaza, November 4, 2023.

Israel: Starvation Used as Weapon of War in Gaza

The Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare in the occupied Gaza Strip, which is a war crime. Israeli forces are deliberately blocking the delivery of water, food, and fuel, while willfully impeding humanitarian assis...

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/18/israel-starvation-used-weapon-war-gaza

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 12:42

Many South African politicians have pointed out parallels between South Africa and Israel / Palestine. Not least because of the segregation and apartheid. Mandela himself pointed it out. So I'm not surprised South Africa are focussing on it more than some of the other conflicts mentioned.

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 12:44

Barbara Woodward, Ambassador and Permanent Representative of the United Kingdom said this last night as part of her comments.

But, too many civilians have been killed,” she said, stating that Israel must comply with international humanitarian law and clearly differentiate between terrorists and civilians.

If Israel is already complying with the above then why is the UK repeatedly emphasising this? It has been said many many times now so take from it what you will

floodlightonwhatisright · 30/12/2023 12:56

South Africa, that great bastion of human rights, invoking a genocide convention against Gaza.

I am sure that that Israel will sit up and take notice.

Tatamkhulu Afrika's "Nothing's Changed" illustrates the persistence of racism and de facto segregation in post-apartheid South Africa. The poem takes place in District Six, a once diverse area of Cape Town whose nonwhite residents were forcibly evicted after the district was declared "whites only" in 1966. Standing outside an upscale inn in the area decades later, the speaker understands that "Nothing's changed": though apartheid legislation has since been repealed and he's now technically free to go where he pleases, there are still places where nonwhite people know they don't "belong.

Nothing’s changedSmall round hard stones click
under my heels,
seeding grasses thrust
bearded seeds
into trouser cuffs, cans,
trodden on, crunch
in tall, purple-flowering,
amiable weeds.

District six.
No board says it is:
but my feet know,
and my hands,
and the skin about my bones,
and the soft labouring of my lungs,
and the hot, white, inwards turning
anger of my eyes.

Brash with glass,
name flaring like a flag,
it squats
in the grass and weeds,
incipient Port Jackson trees:
new, up-market, haute cuisine,
guard at the gatepost,
whites only inn.

No sign says it is:
But we know where we belong.

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 13:08

@floodlightonwhatisright it really is terrible. Sadly South Africa's longstanding issues and persistent corruption exists at least in part as a long term result of the many years of apartheid and oppression.

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 13:08

Level Gaza to the ground
A pregnant woman is an enemy, a baby is an enemy, a first grader is an enemy" - Eliyahu Yossian, Israeli military officer and winner of the Israel Defence Award.

Weefreetiffany · 30/12/2023 13:10

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 13:08

Level Gaza to the ground
A pregnant woman is an enemy, a baby is an enemy, a first grader is an enemy" - Eliyahu Yossian, Israeli military officer and winner of the Israel Defence Award.

That’s the exact attitude the Gazans have to the Israelis too so what do you propose we do to stop them hating and killing each other?

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 13:10

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 13:08

Level Gaza to the ground
A pregnant woman is an enemy, a baby is an enemy, a first grader is an enemy" - Eliyahu Yossian, Israeli military officer and winner of the Israel Defence Award.

This is the genocidal rhetoric said openly on Israeli TV
Even if it isn't the view of the majority, this radicalising rhetoric has no consequences and can be said without fear of retribution by the authorities

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 13:11

@Parkingt111 absolutely appalling.

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 13:14

Weefreetiffany · 30/12/2023 13:10

That’s the exact attitude the Gazans have to the Israelis too so what do you propose we do to stop them hating and killing each other?

There is a long road ahead. But before anything can happen it needs to be acknowledged that this hate and attitude is found on both sides first. Not just from the Gazans as is often portrayed

hollyholey · 30/12/2023 13:14

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 13:14

There is a long road ahead. But before anything can happen it needs to be acknowledged that this hate and attitude is found on both sides first. Not just from the Gazans as is often portrayed

This.

somethingontherigtht · 30/12/2023 13:24

Well done to SA for invoking the Genocide Convention against Israel.

Thank you @HeidiInTheBigCity for starting this thread.

SuePine69 · 30/12/2023 13:50

FOJN · 30/12/2023 12:24

Are you specifically concerned that it's Naledi Pandor or that anyone would talk to Hamas?

The only way I can see this war ending without someone negotiating with Hamas is if Israel manage to kill literally everyone in Gaza or push those they don't kill into other countries, leaving Gaza empty.

Someone will have to talk to them at some point because I don't think the residents of Gaza are in a position to organise an election and choose new leadership at the moment.

The war will end the way that the Second World War ended. The Nazi leadership surrendered. Germany could import food again. Of course if the leadership had surrendered sooner then the suffering of the German people could have ended sooner. That might have happened if the assassination of the leadership by Germans had been successful. There's more than one way to change a leadership.

I have read that the Americans achieved with Japan what the Germans were trying to do with the British. American submarines sank Japanese shipping and stopped food imports. That's a big reason why the Japanese surrendered, as well as the destruction by bombing of cities and the people in them - and I don't mean just Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Call these war crimes if you like but the alternative was that millions of American soldiers killed in an invasion of Japan.

SuePine69 · 30/12/2023 14:06

Parkingt111 · 30/12/2023 12:32

@SuePine69 ofcourse it's not a comparison at all and neither did i say or imply in anyway that it was. The example of the Huwara pogrom was to highlight the inequality and injustice between how the settlers and Palestinians are treated in the occupied territories and how this oppression has been going on for decades and its only now that people are finally speaking up
And the rest of the Palestinians had to flee the terrifying burning mob, but many homes and livelihoods were burned and damaged.
And what was the government's response?

The Pogrom on October the 7th was depraved and inhumane. There is zero justification for it.

Edited

I don't think in Jewish history that when one person is killed it's called a pogrom.

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