South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

It doesn't matter if it was a coalition between North Korea, and the ghosts of bin laden and Stalin - the sole question here is whether Israel are committing genocide.

I raised it because SA don't consider Hamas a terrorist organisation. A very large number of countries do believe it to be so following definition of terrorism by their actions.

Whether genocide has been committed or not remains a question for the judges to decide.

This was from sky news today:

An Israeli airstrike late last night has killed at least 13 people, including two children.
The bodies of the dead, mostly from a displaced family from central Gaza, have been taken to Abu Youssef al Najjar hospital in Rafah, according to the hospital.
A relative of the family killed, Basem Arafa, expressed anger and called on the International Court of Justice (ICJ) to look at the devastation.
"I demand the International Court of Justice to send delegations to witness by their eyes what Israel is doing and the crimes it is committing against the Palestinian people, including the children and women of the Palestinian people," he said.
"This entire family, with its children and women, has been wiped off the civil registry. Do they pose a threat to the state of Israel and America?"

I do hope that at the minimum the ICJ do send a delegation, so they can see the destruction of Gaza for themselves including the destruction of cemeteries amongst other things.

Can you tell me a single country that is a fit and a proper nation and would be able to raise a case like this one ? I can’t think a single country that is clean to be honest

I can’t read the NYT piece (paywall). But it looks as though the IDF moved onto cemeteries to set up military positions. Whether that’s defensible or not militarily I don’t know. But it doesn’t seem to be gratuitous, as ‘desecration’ implies.

The ‘stolen’ bodies is bollocks. Israel took bodies for identification and then returned them. Any country would do that, looking for its kidnapped citizens.

The present organ harvesting claims appear to be very nasty propaganda. And even the historic story isn’t how it’s being presented on here:

https://www.newsweek.com/israel-organ-harvesting-allegations-explained-1847101

I really do think people should be very careful, however strongly they feel. What’s circulating is becoming uncomfortably like extracts from Der Stürmer.

As for SA, the point about its closeness to Hamas, Iran and Russia is that it is providing cover for their actions and ambitions. The case is bogus as a dispute, as Malcolm Shaw pointed out.

Would it matter if SA did say Hamas was a terrorist organisation on whether Israeli government is committing genocide? Are posters saying that this reflects on the protection that innocent Palestinians should be afforded?

@saveallthewhales

The motives behind SA choosing to bring this case against Israel are likely to be complicated. The country was a victim of Apartheid and colonisation at the hands of a western nation, from which it is still recovering (but name me a country without fault as others have pointed out). For these 2 reasons alone- there will be an immense empathy with the Palestinian cause.

It must also be remembered that former Israeli governments supported and armed the former White apartheid governments.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/feb/07/southafrica.israel

Re SA acknowledging that Hamas is a terrorist group- probably one of those annoying technicalities like a genocide isn’t a genocide if the primary intention isn’t genocide or a military response is proportionate even if the casualties are 1:20

Or maybe that it’s not genocide at all, either by intent or action, but conflict in self-defence, the casualties of which are massively expanded by a terrorist aggressor hiding behind civilians and frustrating humanitarian relief efforts. That sort of ‘technicality’.

How come the assassinations Israel has achieved in other countries - including one recently in Bierut of a Hamas leader suspected to be by Israel, have been more targeted and not involved dumb bombs with massive casualties? Why is the US, UK and other allies asking Israel to be more targeted and allow in more aid into Gaza?

In Gaza there has also been the bombing of the terrorist infrastructure like the tunnels, and large numbers of Hamas fighters often within them. So that requires a different approach to a surgical strike on a single senior figure in a country with no such infrastructure or large fighting force around them.

I can understand that, but 2 points
1 - what evidence has there been that this approach has been successful in removing the tunnels? From the supposed videos of tunnels under one of the hospitals - the tunnels were intact? I have also read the tunnels are deep enough to withstand bombing.

2- the Bierut killing used drones and a more targeted bomb to target the individual and the building they were in. Why have dumb bombs been used by the IDF when targeting of one Hamas operative in a refugee camp?

No , I think it’s because Hamas do not pose a military or economic threat to the state of South Africa and probably only those that do so are proscribed terrorist organisations.Hamas’ actions speak for themselves as it were-the atrocities cannot be condoned.

The path to peace is through dialogue. Governments don’t generally negotiate directly with terrorists. It’s really unlikely that either peace any hostage release will happen via direct negotiations.

Except that hostages have already been released due to negotiations? Israel has rejected proposals - as has Hamas, when it hasn’t suited them. But who’s more at fault?

Israel is acting in self-defense following the Hamas atrocities on October 7, a German state official said on Friday, announcing the country will intervene on Israel’s behalf at the Hague, where the Jewish state defends itself against South Africa’s charge of “genocide.”

German government spokesperson Steffen Hebestreit emphasized Berlin’s commitment to the UN Genocide Convention, signed in 1948 in response to the Holocaust.

An official statement from the German government clarified that Berlin opposes the “political instrumentalization” of the Genocide Convention.
“On October 7, 2023, Hamas terrorists brutally attacked, tortured, killed and kidnapped innocent people in Israel,” the statement read. “Hamas’s goal is to wipe out Israel. Since then, Israel has been defending itself against the inhumane attack by Hamas.”
“The Federal Government firmly and expressly rejects the accusation of genocide that has now been made against Israel at the International Court of Justice. This accusation has no basis whatsoever.”

Germany to Intervene in Hague Case to Defend Israel Against ‘Baseless’ Charge of ‘Genocide
https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/01/13/germany-to-intervene-in-hague-case-to-defend-israel-against-baseless-charge-of-genocide/

Two South Africans were among the dead after the 7 October attacks and a woman named Channah Peri was taken hostage and released in November so it's not even true that SA hasn't been affected by Hamas terrorism.

Yeah, I think it's incredibly easy to forget that foreign nationals in Israel were murdered on 7th October 2023 by Hamas.

Timely reminder!

Germany seeking its own redemption. Hopefully Belgium will have the courage to do the right thing.

Seeking its own redemption?
What happened in the Holocaust was being horrific. How does not preventing a potential second genocide equal to redemption?

Just wow.

I meant in terms of redemption that Germany will always stand by Israel no matter what because of what it did to European Jews.

Two wrongs don’t make a right

I don’t think they make a right either Polka83 unfortunately everyone has their own agenda even when it comes to defending Genocide sadly.