South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

What are the facts of this? What does ‘desecration’ mean? Who’s stealing bodies? What for? Who reported it and who verified it, and how?

If what you say is substantially true then it’s appalling. If it isn’t, it looks like nasty old fashioned Jew-hating propaganda along the lines of blood libels. (I’m not saying you would be the propagandist. The originators would be.)

Yeah, I’m far from convinced by that.

@QueenRania yes the 'organ harvesting' scandal was about 25 yrs ago

The 80 bodies recently taken by Israel for forensic examination [searching for remains of hostages] had been subject to ?post mortem examination/other interference giving rise to suspicion

The red crescent HQ is in Khan yunis. If its being bombed then the staff there aren't going to be able to coordinate action to get volunteers to the North to bury bodies, are they?

I'm in awe of the volunteers to be honest. Still there despite the huge personal risks to themselves.

@WhatsTheUseOfWorrying

"Israel admits to organ theft"

www.aljazeera.com/news/2009/12/21/israel-admits-to-organ-thefts

There's many articles on cemeteries being razed in Gaza
Here's one with satellite imagery published on the New York Times

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/14/world/middleeast/gaza-cemeteries-damage-israel.html

From the article:
Israeli ground forces have damaged or destroyed at least six cemeteries during their advance into the northern Gaza Strip, most of them in recent weeks, according to an analysis of new satellite imagery and video footage by The New York Times.
In Gaza City’s Shajaiye neighborhood, where heavy combat raged in recent days, Israeli forces razed part of the Tunisian cemetery to set up a temporary military position. A satellite image from Sunday shows armored vehicles and earthen fortifications on what were intact graves days earlier.

There's many graphic videos of civilians who have gone back to the cemeteries once troops have moved away which show parts of corpses visible in the ground but I won't share that. I'm sure the above article with satellite imagery of before and after of the graveyards should suffice

No 'jew-hating propaganda

There has been more than one report of graveyards being deliberately bulldozed disinterring bodies - the first one was examined/verified by BBC Verify

Here you go. The IDF have confirmed that they 'take' bodies sometimes. They say it's so that can check if they are hostages.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/palestinians-work-identify-80-dead-handed-over-israel-2023-12-27/

Desecration, with CNN viewing footage and seeing visits scattered around. This is the skeleton that there IDF bulldozed graves, digging up corpses and then running then over. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/23/middleeast/kamal-adwan-hospital-gaza-israel-abuse-allegations-intl-cmd/index.html

So we know that they have dug up bodies and removed them. We also know that previously they gave removed organs from Palestinians, though apparently this has now stopped. I don't get what Israel would do with old rotting organs though. The whole thing is very unpleasant.

Ps: this taking bodies thing isn't a new phenomenon by Israel. (https://www.btselem.org/routine_founded_on_violence/20191022_hcj_greenlights_holding_palestinian_bodies_as_bargaining_chips)

@SomeCatFromJapan I have just read this tweet. Thanks for posting it.
"Israeli journalist @yanircozin asked the head of the Southern African Department of International Law whether his country defines Hamas as a terrorist organization.

His answer? “We do not define it as a terrorist organization since it does not operate in our territory, so no."

This is absolutely extraordinary.

I think that ultimately, SA will have its own relationships with certain nations and organisations be thrown into sharp relief and examined. It will be most uncomfortable for them and won't do their "case" any good. SA certainly is brave bringing this convention as it really opens them up to scrutiny.

'Taking' without permission = stealing

Meh.

So their policy is that they will only designate something a terrorist organisation if it operates in their territory.

As long as that definition is applied to every group (that doesn't update in SA) , not just Hamas, then that's their call surely.

As long as that definition is applied to every group (that doesn't update in SA) , not just Hamas, then that's their call surely.

It is - but possibly aid arrangements need to then be re-examined if their values are so unaligned to those of the donor countries.

It's got nothing to do with values.

They just have different jurisdictional criteria when it comes to official designations. It's similar to the BBC not calling Hamas terrorists, because that goes against their policies, but they can say they are a prescribed terrorist organisation.

They were clear in what they thought of Hamas and the atrocity they committed in the hearing.

ps: are you really suggesting THREATENING a state by withdrawing aid for this. Isn't that basically extortion...

Do SA apply this to Isis, the Taleban, the houtis etc or just Hamas. The actions of Hamas certainly lead lots of countries to agree that they are a terrorist organisation, even if SA don't consider them terrorists.

https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/references/terrorist-organizations/

Does anyone have the link to the petition that was also signed by a politician in Israel? I wanted to read the full letter
It seems there are some people even within Israel who believe that there is a genocide being carried out in Gaza

https://ewn.co.za/2024/01/08/over-400-israeli-citizens-sign-petition-backing-sa-s-genocide-case-vs-israel/amp

This is how SA define terrorism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_South_Africa

It links onto their requirements for terrorism

I haven't got the link to the petition itself, but is this who you are referring to?

www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/11/who-is-israeli-mp-ofer-cassif-why-is-he-backing-south-africa-at-the-icj

Thanks. That's interesting. The relevant provision is s.14 of the Bill (linked to in the wiki page). I have no idea if that was amended in the final version as I can only find the Bill and not the Act, but if it was unchanged, there is no legal reason on the fact on that Bill, why Hamas could not be designated as a terrorist organisation. It's not actually limited by territory.

I can't find a list of prescribed organisations by SA anywhere though, which is odd.

If there is a list it would be interesting to see what is on it and what is not.

Either way, this has zero relevance on whether Israel had committed genocide, though an interesting intellectual diversion. Even if they were 'best buddies', the question still remains the same as to whether Israel have committed genocide.

This.

It's not a diversion, it's about whether a country is a fit and proper nation to be even bringing a case like this due to their divergences in view with so many western nations' quite correct view of Hamas.

Translation: Israel couldn't have possibly killed tens of thousands of people, bombed mosques, churches and hospitals, denied food, water and electricity amongst other atrocities in Gaza because of South Africa's history and beliefs.

Seems like a distraction to me.

Israel isn't a Western country with Western values either though. I don't think we can say you don't get a say on anything because we don't agree that your country is 'fit and proper'. I'm sure there would be uproar if we here in the West decided Israels pov counts for nothing because they are a racist, facist state.

@anotherlevel yes that politician. I read it in the times of Israel but couldn't find the article again thank you