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Conflict in the Middle East

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

1000 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 30/12/2023 03:04

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza
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89
balamo · 13/01/2024 20:34

DownNative · 13/01/2024 19:51

Yeah, I think it's incredibly easy to forget that foreign nationals in Israel were murdered on 7th October 2023 by Hamas.

Timely reminder!

I think it was easy to forget because all the "Bring them home" type hostage posters by Israel were of white skinned people. I was shocked to see all the Thai hostages when they were released. It was as if they never existed at all

CluelessPepperoni · 13/01/2024 20:52

balamo · 13/01/2024 20:34

I think it was easy to forget because all the "Bring them home" type hostage posters by Israel were of white skinned people. I was shocked to see all the Thai hostages when they were released. It was as if they never existed at all

The coverage around the Thai hostages really shocked me tbh. They weren't even referred to as Thai hostages, just Thai workers. There was really a two tier worthy of coverage system going on. '10 hostages were released today there names and life stories are....' then as a foot note '12 Thai workers were also released'. It ties in to the language used around Palestinian deaths vs Israeli deaths, Palestinians die, Israelis are slaughtered. Israelis are hostages, Thai hostages are workers.

stomachameleon · 13/01/2024 20:54

'Defending genocide' defending Hamas and their actions are indefensible.

stomachameleon · 13/01/2024 20:56

@CluelessPepperoni that's rubbish. The wording was like that because the release of foreign nationals was done generally by their own governments who were keen to distance them from the 'hostages' This made them less worth keeping hold of the the Israeli hostages.
Putin and the Russian hostages is a good example of this.

Don't make things up.

headstone · 13/01/2024 20:57

It’s all indefensible really stomachameleon, wouldn’t it be nice to end all this killing of civilians?

balamo · 13/01/2024 20:59

Nah, it's not @CluelessPepperoni who's making things up. Isreal is a deeply racist state

headstone · 13/01/2024 21:00

I read an article about one of the Thai hostages who was released. He went back home to absolute poverty as he had spent so much money coming to Israel. Despite what he went through he hoped to go back to Israel earn enough money to survive back home. Just makes you realise what poverty is really like.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 13/01/2024 21:07

headstone · 13/01/2024 20:06

Germany seeking its own redemption. Hopefully Belgium will have the courage to do the right thing.

I happen to work for a predominantly German company and hence have a lot of German colleagues - spend quite a lot of time in Germany, fluent in the language, follow the news ... you name it!

To some extent, the "guilt" argument is certainly accurate. Specifically the notion that some Germans see in Israel some sort of a beacon of atonement for past sins, so to speak.

When this is the case, in my experience, this is often genuine and deep-felt - especially (but not only) among the left. There are certainly aspects that, as a non-German, I find weird and frankly problematic - such as what I am tempted to call a level of "fetishisation" of Jewish people that has very little to do with actual Jews. (By the way, this is something that also happens among certain segments of Palestine supporters - I have always hated it). But that is what it is, and I can somehow respect this as a genuine - albeit deeply misguided, in my opinion - attempt to "do better".

However, there is also very clearly a much, much darker element to German "Israel right or wrong" attitudes, and that is essentially when it becomes - and it is doing this - a stand-in and nothing much more than "German nationalism by proxy":

It ought to have us all worried, I should like to think, that, in Germany, being "against antisemitism" and "standing with Israel" is, among other things, a rallying cry for the far-right AfD. And that "imported anti-semitism" is the #1 dog whistle against migrants. That, apparently, pro-Palestinian Jews are more of a problem than one Hubert Aiwanger, deputy PM of the state of Bavaria, a one time bona fide neonazi whose former teachers felt compelled to speak up about him holding office. But he stands with Israel, so that's alright then!

And, most of all: the claim that Israel's existence and security are German "Staatsräson" (about: "state's raison d'être") - once made, among others, by former chancellor Merkel even.

Germans do not, due to their history, really get away with loudly shouting "Germany, gung-ho!" (or "Deutschland über alles", as it used to be). Like in many other European countries, however, far-right attitudes are on the rise in Germany. As is a nasty form of nationalism - it's just that, in Germany, a lot of its public expression is projected upon Israel. Pro-Israeli nationalism is, essentially, the acceptable form of expressing nationalism in Germany.

This is not a good thing - not even if you are pro-Israel!

OP posts:
Kindatired · 13/01/2024 21:07

Polka83 · 13/01/2024 19:31

Except that hostages have already been released due to negotiations? Israel has rejected proposals - as has Hamas, when it hasn’t suited them. But who’s more at fault?

Yes, the number released through negotiation is greater than the single hostage rescued by IDF who have killed more than they rescued- 3 shot and up to 13 killed by tank in a kibbutz. Quatar was the mediator.
The US has strict criteria for getting on its terrorist list and one of the problems , according to the pro Israeli Washington Institute, is that it’s hard to get them off the list when they move towards peace. But different countries seem to use different criteria- the Real/New IRA is on the US list but not Canadian list. Meanwhile, the leader of Sinn Fein , previously the political arm of the provisional IRA is in London to encourage a huge gathering of Palestinian supporters to embrace the path of peace

stomachameleon · 13/01/2024 21:16

@balamo probably help if you spell it correctly. Thanks for the factual breakdown though.

stomachameleon · 13/01/2024 21:17

@headstone I absolutely agree.

stomachameleon · 13/01/2024 21:19

@headstone and I read that article too but it's not unique to this situation.
Look at those who cross the channel borrowing huge sums to do it.

Polka83 · 13/01/2024 21:25

Kindatired · 13/01/2024 21:07

Yes, the number released through negotiation is greater than the single hostage rescued by IDF who have killed more than they rescued- 3 shot and up to 13 killed by tank in a kibbutz. Quatar was the mediator.
The US has strict criteria for getting on its terrorist list and one of the problems , according to the pro Israeli Washington Institute, is that it’s hard to get them off the list when they move towards peace. But different countries seem to use different criteria- the Real/New IRA is on the US list but not Canadian list. Meanwhile, the leader of Sinn Fein , previously the political arm of the provisional IRA is in London to encourage a huge gathering of Palestinian supporters to embrace the path of peace

Nelson Mandela and the ANC are another examples of former terrorists who authorities had to negotiate with and who were ultimately taken off terrorist lists.

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 21:35

was shocked to see all the Thai hostages when they were released. It was as if they never existed at all

Not my experience at all. I saw a great deal about the Thai victims as well as the poor Kenyan man. There was a great deal of upset at the brutality of their murders.

Also plenty about the hostage given that was seen being dragged through a hospital.

It might just be your news and social media of choice that wasn't interested in them.

PeasfullPerson · 13/01/2024 21:37

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 21:35

was shocked to see all the Thai hostages when they were released. It was as if they never existed at all

Not my experience at all. I saw a great deal about the Thai victims as well as the poor Kenyan man. There was a great deal of upset at the brutality of their murders.

Also plenty about the hostage given that was seen being dragged through a hospital.

It might just be your news and social media of choice that wasn't interested in them.

I’m interested, please tell me what news and social media sources you were viewing?

DownNative · 13/01/2024 21:38

Kindatired · 13/01/2024 21:07

Yes, the number released through negotiation is greater than the single hostage rescued by IDF who have killed more than they rescued- 3 shot and up to 13 killed by tank in a kibbutz. Quatar was the mediator.
The US has strict criteria for getting on its terrorist list and one of the problems , according to the pro Israeli Washington Institute, is that it’s hard to get them off the list when they move towards peace. But different countries seem to use different criteria- the Real/New IRA is on the US list but not Canadian list. Meanwhile, the leader of Sinn Fein , previously the political arm of the provisional IRA is in London to encourage a huge gathering of Palestinian supporters to embrace the path of peace

The Shinner isn't there to "encourage a huge gathering of Palestinian supporters to embrace the path of peace".

Last I checked, PSF hadn't condemned Hamas. Indeed, several of their members were immediately in solidarity with Hamas on 7th October. Especially with the claptrap of equating PIRA in H-Block with the Nakba which is mad anyway.

It's pretty clear to me PSF/PIRA speak with a forked tongue.

And the path of peace was "chosen" by PSF/PIRA because they were defeated. The propaganda of the peace process has you thinking otherwise. 🤷‍♂️

BTW, Provisional Sinn Féin is NOT "previously the political arm of PIRA". The reality is PIRA still exists with PIRA and PSF controlled by the Provisional Army Council. PIRA hasn't gone away according to the security assessments. PSNI Terrorism Unit still deals with PIRA to this day.

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 21:40

@PeasfullPerson X mostly.

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 21:42

HeidiInTheBigCity · 13/01/2024 21:07

I happen to work for a predominantly German company and hence have a lot of German colleagues - spend quite a lot of time in Germany, fluent in the language, follow the news ... you name it!

To some extent, the "guilt" argument is certainly accurate. Specifically the notion that some Germans see in Israel some sort of a beacon of atonement for past sins, so to speak.

When this is the case, in my experience, this is often genuine and deep-felt - especially (but not only) among the left. There are certainly aspects that, as a non-German, I find weird and frankly problematic - such as what I am tempted to call a level of "fetishisation" of Jewish people that has very little to do with actual Jews. (By the way, this is something that also happens among certain segments of Palestine supporters - I have always hated it). But that is what it is, and I can somehow respect this as a genuine - albeit deeply misguided, in my opinion - attempt to "do better".

However, there is also very clearly a much, much darker element to German "Israel right or wrong" attitudes, and that is essentially when it becomes - and it is doing this - a stand-in and nothing much more than "German nationalism by proxy":

It ought to have us all worried, I should like to think, that, in Germany, being "against antisemitism" and "standing with Israel" is, among other things, a rallying cry for the far-right AfD. And that "imported anti-semitism" is the #1 dog whistle against migrants. That, apparently, pro-Palestinian Jews are more of a problem than one Hubert Aiwanger, deputy PM of the state of Bavaria, a one time bona fide neonazi whose former teachers felt compelled to speak up about him holding office. But he stands with Israel, so that's alright then!

And, most of all: the claim that Israel's existence and security are German "Staatsräson" (about: "state's raison d'être") - once made, among others, by former chancellor Merkel even.

Germans do not, due to their history, really get away with loudly shouting "Germany, gung-ho!" (or "Deutschland über alles", as it used to be). Like in many other European countries, however, far-right attitudes are on the rise in Germany. As is a nasty form of nationalism - it's just that, in Germany, a lot of its public expression is projected upon Israel. Pro-Israeli nationalism is, essentially, the acceptable form of expressing nationalism in Germany.

This is not a good thing - not even if you are pro-Israel!

Edited

I've noticed very similar among right wing politicians here and in the US too. I can't figure out why "standing with Israel" is such a strong message for the right wing but it certainly seems to be. I was wondering if it was a cynical play pre-election to reinvigorate the "Labour are antisemitic" angle but maybe there is a global issue at play. Very puzzling.

PeasfullPerson · 13/01/2024 21:49

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 21:40

@PeasfullPerson X mostly.

Any specific accounts you care to mention? As you come at this from a very different angle to myself, I am wondering why that might be, and how the information you are presented with differs/plays into that.

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 21:52

Are you asking this in good faith @PeasfullPerson ?

I don't mind given some of the high profile and official accounts but I'm definitely not mentioning the smaller, lower-profile ones so that people could decide to troll them.

PeasfullPerson · 13/01/2024 21:55

Yes @AdamRyan I agree, right wing groups aren’t generally known for welcoming others they view as being different from themselves. They use fear of out groups as a way to maintain internal cohesion and power. I like to think Israel’s method of self defence would have been more measured if they didn’t currently have so many far right members of government.

PeasfullPerson · 13/01/2024 21:57

@SomeCatFromJapan yes, I am interested to know, I would like to understand.

PeasfullPerson · 13/01/2024 21:58

@SomeCatFromJapan To add, I can assure you I have no interest in trolling any accounts but I understand why you wouldn’t want to share those.

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 22:05

FWIW I follow people like Ben Goldsmith, Aviva Klompas, Eylon Levy, John Aziz, Campaign Against Antisemitism, Khaled Hassan, David Collier, Loay Alshareef, Harris Sultan, Oz Katerji, Gad Saad and Shaiel Ben-Ephraim.

@PeasfullPerson sorry if I questioned your motives, absolutely nothing personal to you, just some run ins with other less than good faith posters previously.

A lot of it is also the algorithm, I get a lot of people in my For You feed that I don't actually follow as I'm sure everyone does.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 13/01/2024 22:11

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 22:05

FWIW I follow people like Ben Goldsmith, Aviva Klompas, Eylon Levy, John Aziz, Campaign Against Antisemitism, Khaled Hassan, David Collier, Loay Alshareef, Harris Sultan, Oz Katerji, Gad Saad and Shaiel Ben-Ephraim.

@PeasfullPerson sorry if I questioned your motives, absolutely nothing personal to you, just some run ins with other less than good faith posters previously.

A lot of it is also the algorithm, I get a lot of people in my For You feed that I don't actually follow as I'm sure everyone does.

Edited

Fun fact: I follow all of these, too! I mean, I actively disagree with them and, specifically re. Klompas, Levy, and Collier (just because they are the most blatant ones in terms of tone and audacity), find them to be borderline unbearable vile propagandists ... some of the de-humanisation of Palestinians coming from them makes my blood boil.

... but, as a critical thinker, you do not shut out voices who disagree with you. You read them. And every single time they piss you the fuck off, you ask yourself "are they right, though?"

To me, personally, they are right on "hostages deserve to return home" - and rabidly racist apologists for mass murder on basically everything else.

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