Page 8 | IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

Struggggggling · 2023-12-15T18:56:59+00:00

[[https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza/]] Previous hostages warned this would happen, tragic events. There is no winner in this conflict only losers. Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

StarbucksSmarterSister · 17/12/2023 13:58

I have read the first 5 pages of this thread allegedly about 3 hostages who were killed by their own side and not one of you has even mentioned their names.

Yotam Haim
Alon Shamriz
Samer El-Talalka

floodlightonwhatisright · 17/12/2023 14:04

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 13:48

I was under the impression Israel declared war. Regarding Israeli babies, I’ve noticed a distinct sluggishness about condemning the October 7th attacks.

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Well said Bagpussdreams.

Howpo · 17/12/2023 14:30

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 13:56

Hamas “owned up“ to it to send out a galvanising message to all the Israel-haters around the world.

That’s different to the IDF owning up to screwing up, being ashamed and doing wrong.

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I thought the IDF has said no further action against the soldiers involved not their commanders?

So IDF not ashamed and have done no wrong, just "one of those things"

The most successful counter terrorism strategies are ones where the legitimate government does not stoop to the same level of barbarity as the terrorists.

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 14:41

Howpo · 17/12/2023 14:30

I thought the IDF has said no further action against the soldiers involved not their commanders?

So IDF not ashamed and have done no wrong, just "one of those things"

The most successful counter terrorism strategies are ones where the legitimate government does not stoop to the same level of barbarity as the terrorists.

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does not stoop to the same level of barbarity as the terrorists.

Do you think there is parity between what Hamas did on October 7th and this screw up?

the IDF has said no further action against the soldiers involved not their commanders?

I can’t respond to this because I think there is a typo. Are you criticising that it was not their commanders who said no action to be taken, but spokespeople for the IDF, or are you criticising that no further action is being taken against the individual soldiers and it is the commanders falling on their swords, or are you criticising that their commanders are not being properly sanctioned?

FOJN · 17/12/2023 16:05

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 12:27

I think the soldiers who shot them did not have cool, calm, collected minds.

There are going to be some who can handle the uncertainty of who is civilian and who is Hamas better than others.

Why would you expect ‘logic’ to be the guiding principle when tackling an enemy who don’t wear uniforms and use cunning and deceit instead? They play recordings of crying children to draw Israeli soldiers towards explosives, dress as civilians, etc. Hamas do everything to disguise themselves as innocent civilians. Of course it’s going to be those innocent civilians who are then going to be mistaken for Hamas. It’s the reason for wearing uniforms- so you can recognise your own side and the enemy. Hamas don’t do that. That’s on Hamas.

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I referred to your logic not an expectation that it should be a guiding principle for an army.

In the case of an army I expect them to uphold international law. You don't get a free pass on committing war crimes because your enemy is devious.

saffronsoup · 17/12/2023 16:40

They didn’t mistakenly identify them as a threat. They mistakenly identified them as Palestinians. They shot them intentionally thinking they were Palestinians and knowing they would have been cheered for more dead Arabs.

The only mistake here was nationality /ethnicity.

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 16:50

FOJN · 17/12/2023 16:05

I referred to your logic not an expectation that it should be a guiding principle for an army.

In the case of an army I expect them to uphold international law. You don't get a free pass on committing war crimes because your enemy is devious.

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I see. Well I too expect them to uphold international law, as does the rest of the world. Hamas, on the other hand are not expected to uphold international law. Hamas know this double-standard and use it to their advantage.

Although I don’t think Israel have a license to flout international law, I can see how an opponent who will use whatever dirty tricks, including the pressure only your side feels, to uphold international law, against you, then you will be suspicious of things like people waving white flags.

Understanding this - how the conditions Hamas have created with their dirty tricks, causes suspicion in Israeli soldiers - are they a decoy? Have they got concealed weapons or explosives? etc, does not mean I think they have a license to flout international law.

I can just see why it would happen.

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 16:53

saffronsoup · 17/12/2023 16:40

They didn’t mistakenly identify them as a threat. They mistakenly identified them as Palestinians. They shot them intentionally thinking they were Palestinians and knowing they would have been cheered for more dead Arabs.

The only mistake here was nationality /ethnicity.

I don’t know what planet you are on, but the only ethnic group I’ve seen calls to wipe out are the Jews. I’ve heard nothing about calls to wipe out Arabs.

FOJN · 17/12/2023 17:25

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 16:50

I see. Well I too expect them to uphold international law, as does the rest of the world. Hamas, on the other hand are not expected to uphold international law. Hamas know this double-standard and use it to their advantage.

Although I don’t think Israel have a license to flout international law, I can see how an opponent who will use whatever dirty tricks, including the pressure only your side feels, to uphold international law, against you, then you will be suspicious of things like people waving white flags.

Understanding this - how the conditions Hamas have created with their dirty tricks, causes suspicion in Israeli soldiers - are they a decoy? Have they got concealed weapons or explosives? etc, does not mean I think they have a license to flout international law.

I can just see why it would happen.

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Hamas are terrorists. A terrorist is defined as:

"a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

I think we can agree they ticked all the boxes on October 7th. And no they don't get a free pass just because they meet the definition of terrorist.

Israel ratified the Geneva Conventions in 1951. The fourth Geneva Convention is concerned with the protection of civilians, particularly in occupied territories.

State armies do not get to behave like terrorists because terrorists behave like terrorists.

We can all see how it might happen but that doesn't mean it's not a war crime. It's sounds more like you are blaming Hamas for the actions of the IDF.

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 17:45

FOJN · 17/12/2023 17:25

Hamas are terrorists. A terrorist is defined as:

"a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims."

I think we can agree they ticked all the boxes on October 7th. And no they don't get a free pass just because they meet the definition of terrorist.

Israel ratified the Geneva Conventions in 1951. The fourth Geneva Convention is concerned with the protection of civilians, particularly in occupied territories.

State armies do not get to behave like terrorists because terrorists behave like terrorists.

We can all see how it might happen but that doesn't mean it's not a war crime. It's sounds more like you are blaming Hamas for the actions of the IDF.

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Do you remember when Jean Charles de Menezes was shot in the head in the Underground?

It was a huge wake-up call. Everyone was traumatised by the 7/7 bombings and something had to be done.

It was a disturbing screw up.

I don’t think the Met were behaving like terrorists when they made that screw up. They were doing their jobs and made the wrong call.

The terrorists who were behind the London bombings created the conditions where an innocent man got shot by the Met.

Although the bombers didn’t pull the trigger and it was the Met’s mistake, he, or anyone else, would not have been shot that day if the London bombers weren’t at large.

In the same way, Hamas are creating conditions where innocent people are getting killed. Do you expect Israel to just take October 7th lying down? Not to retaliate?

QueenRania · 17/12/2023 18:09

The IDF are doing a great job showing the world exactly what they are. If this was an isolated incident I could understand posters trying to excuse/justify. However there is a pattern of similar behaviour that is not limited to post October 7. The IDF shoot as they please, this time it just happened to be the very people they were trying to rescue.

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 18:46

The IDF are doing a great job showing the world exactly what they are.

This is a meaningless statement.

It’s like the Met shooting de Menezes, and Wayne Cousins et al in the Met doesn’t show the world ‘exactly who they are’.

Wtf do you think they are?

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 19:48

This thread is so depressing. It's tragic that the hostages were shot. Even sadder that some people want to turn that into "Look what morons IDF are" / "They shoot at anything that moves" etc.

I doubt the soldiers who shot them will ever get over this. It just makes you wonder what they have been taught to disregard/treat with suspicion because Hamas play so dirty.

I met a guy who'd done military service in another conflict, against the Taliban. He now does menial work in a shitty hotel in the middle of nowhere and apparently is a shell of his former self. He shot a boy of about 10 who was approaching with his hands behind his back and refused to stop walking or show what was in his hands. After his death they found that the boy was in fact carrying a grenade, but this guy will never get over the horror of shooting him.

Terrorists like Hamas enjoy putting people in these situations because they win both ways. Either people fall for the trap and become direct victims, or they are suspicious and are ultimately destroyed by their own conscience. Or, as in this case, they make the wrong decision and are ridiculed by the lynch mob for the rest of their lives.

braticus · 17/12/2023 20:00

@Pizdietz Just off the top of my head the IDF have ran over innocent civilians with a bulldozer, left premature babies to stave and rot in incubators, shot children in the back while they were running away, assassinated journalists and prevented severely injured civilians from seeking medical aid. I don’t think you have to worry about them feeling guilty. It’s clear they don’t have a conscience.

Bagpussdreams · 17/12/2023 20:15

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 19:48

This thread is so depressing. It's tragic that the hostages were shot. Even sadder that some people want to turn that into "Look what morons IDF are" / "They shoot at anything that moves" etc.

I doubt the soldiers who shot them will ever get over this. It just makes you wonder what they have been taught to disregard/treat with suspicion because Hamas play so dirty.

I met a guy who'd done military service in another conflict, against the Taliban. He now does menial work in a shitty hotel in the middle of nowhere and apparently is a shell of his former self. He shot a boy of about 10 who was approaching with his hands behind his back and refused to stop walking or show what was in his hands. After his death they found that the boy was in fact carrying a grenade, but this guy will never get over the horror of shooting him.

Terrorists like Hamas enjoy putting people in these situations because they win both ways. Either people fall for the trap and become direct victims, or they are suspicious and are ultimately destroyed by their own conscience. Or, as in this case, they make the wrong decision and are ridiculed by the lynch mob for the rest of their lives.

Great post

Auvergne63 · 17/12/2023 20:24

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 19:48

This thread is so depressing. It's tragic that the hostages were shot. Even sadder that some people want to turn that into "Look what morons IDF are" / "They shoot at anything that moves" etc.

I doubt the soldiers who shot them will ever get over this. It just makes you wonder what they have been taught to disregard/treat with suspicion because Hamas play so dirty.

I met a guy who'd done military service in another conflict, against the Taliban. He now does menial work in a shitty hotel in the middle of nowhere and apparently is a shell of his former self. He shot a boy of about 10 who was approaching with his hands behind his back and refused to stop walking or show what was in his hands. After his death they found that the boy was in fact carrying a grenade, but this guy will never get over the horror of shooting him.

Terrorists like Hamas enjoy putting people in these situations because they win both ways. Either people fall for the trap and become direct victims, or they are suspicious and are ultimately destroyed by their own conscience. Or, as in this case, they make the wrong decision and are ridiculed by the lynch mob for the rest of their lives.

Firstly, under international humanitarian law it is prohibited to make the object of attack a person who has surrendered. They should have known that as they are supposed to be the "moral army".
Secondly, the IDF deliberately executed the third man, after having been hunted down. I repeat, they hunted him down! This was a conscious decision.
Thirdly, you blame Hamas for this? Really? I have heard every excuse to deflect from what the IDF are doing. This one takes the biscuit.

QueenRania · 17/12/2023 20:29

braticus · 17/12/2023 20:00

@Pizdietz Just off the top of my head the IDF have ran over innocent civilians with a bulldozer, left premature babies to stave and rot in incubators, shot children in the back while they were running away, assassinated journalists and prevented severely injured civilians from seeking medical aid. I don’t think you have to worry about them feeling guilty. It’s clear they don’t have a conscience.

Some posters are never going to accept despite the ever mounting evidence. You just need to do a quick Google search and you can find organisations such as amnesty who have been reporting on human rights abuses dating back years.

headstone · 17/12/2023 20:31

Pizdietz I also feel immensely sorry for these IDF soldiers, just imagine you think you are shooting an unarmed Palestinian begging for his life and it turns out you gave actually shot an unarmed Israeli begging for his life. I really don’t know how they will get over this trauma, maybe if they then go on to shoot a load of Palestinian women and children sheltering in a refugee camp they might feel better? Or maybe bulldozer a few cemeteries. Shoot a few doctors and nurses? Crush some of the sick and wounded with a tank? Leave some premature babies to die? There are endless ways for them to get over this I suppose.

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 20:32

Auvergne63 · 17/12/2023 20:24

Firstly, under international humanitarian law it is prohibited to make the object of attack a person who has surrendered. They should have known that as they are supposed to be the "moral army".
Secondly, the IDF deliberately executed the third man, after having been hunted down. I repeat, they hunted him down! This was a conscious decision.
Thirdly, you blame Hamas for this? Really? I have heard every excuse to deflect from what the IDF are doing. This one takes the biscuit.

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Are you saying that they deliberately wanted to kill a hostage?

braticus · 17/12/2023 20:38

headstone · 17/12/2023 20:31

Pizdietz I also feel immensely sorry for these IDF soldiers, just imagine you think you are shooting an unarmed Palestinian begging for his life and it turns out you gave actually shot an unarmed Israeli begging for his life. I really don’t know how they will get over this trauma, maybe if they then go on to shoot a load of Palestinian women and children sheltering in a refugee camp they might feel better? Or maybe bulldozer a few cemeteries. Shoot a few doctors and nurses? Crush some of the sick and wounded with a tank? Leave some premature babies to die? There are endless ways for them to get over this I suppose.

👏👏👏👏

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 20:38

headstone · 17/12/2023 20:31

Pizdietz I also feel immensely sorry for these IDF soldiers, just imagine you think you are shooting an unarmed Palestinian begging for his life and it turns out you gave actually shot an unarmed Israeli begging for his life. I really don’t know how they will get over this trauma, maybe if they then go on to shoot a load of Palestinian women and children sheltering in a refugee camp they might feel better? Or maybe bulldozer a few cemeteries. Shoot a few doctors and nurses? Crush some of the sick and wounded with a tank? Leave some premature babies to die? There are endless ways for them to get over this I suppose.

You're saying there is nothing more to differentiate these situations than race? Slight oversimplification methinks...?!

braticus · 17/12/2023 20:40

@Pizdietz I think they're saying that they wanted to deliberately kill Palestinian civilians who turned out to be hostages.

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 20:42

braticus · 17/12/2023 20:40

@Pizdietz I think they're saying that they wanted to deliberately kill Palestinian civilians who turned out to be hostages.

No, hold on, I think they're saying IDF should trust someone waving a white flag.

I wish things were that easy, but suspect you'd learn the naivety of such an approach very quickly.

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 20:48

I mean just as an example, Hamas dressed in the police and IDF uniforms of those they killed on 7 October. Many of the survivors of the Nova Festival massacre describe how kids ran towards "safety", only to be butchered and raped.

braticus · 17/12/2023 20:52

Pizdietz · 17/12/2023 20:48

I mean just as an example, Hamas dressed in the police and IDF uniforms of those they killed on 7 October. Many of the survivors of the Nova Festival massacre describe how kids ran towards "safety", only to be butchered and raped.

Source?