IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

[Struggggggling]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza/

Previous hostages warned this would happen, tragic events. There is no winner in this conflict only losers.

Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

Miscellaneous survivor accounts on YouTube. I'll see if I can share some tomorrow, off to bed now.

Certainly yes there is, the context is IDF have killed entire families, murdered people, shot children in cold blood.
19,000 people killed, they have used bombs filled with shrapnel in civilian areas.... you happy with that?

The IDF should sanction the soldiers and/or the commanders, as the UK has done (when UK soldiers have exceeded rules of engagement) in the Bloody Sunday killings or more recently in Afghanistan.

Either we are better than the terrorists or their equal.

What do you want Israel to be?

@Pizdietz so they should just shoot any civilian just in case they are Hamas?

Just off the top of my head, here's an example. About halfway through, she describes Hamas deliberately disguising themselves in the uniforms of dead police

If their policy was to shoot any civilian, I doubt there'd be anyone left alive in Gaza by now. Sorry to be crude as it's a tragic situation, but just applying logic here. Anyway, goodnight!

If you think there is parity, then you support terrorism and the tactics of Hamas on October the 7th.

There’s not much else to discuss on that one with you.

I don’t think it is always clear who is responsible in a chain of command when mistakes are made. Could the soldiers have been following some unclear instructions? Could the commanders have been told to conduct things in certain way? Could the soldiers have gone rogue and become trigger happy? Should the commanders have been aware that a soldier was starting to lose their mind and needed to take leave? Etc, etc.

The 3 hostages were shirtless, holding white flags and asking for help in Hebrew.
If this was a one off by scared young Israeli soldiers newly recruited to fight this war, one might understand.
However there are too many reports of innocent civilians being killed. The only thing that was against protocol was that the civilians they happened to shoot were Israelis.

The Vatican has expressed concerns about snipers shooting into a Catholic church killing 2 women.

« Pope Francis condemned an attack on the compound of the Catholic parish, “where there are no terrorists, but families, children, people who are sick and have disabilities, and nuns.” »

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/world/news/2023-12/in-gaza-israelis-attack-holy-family-parish-two-women-killed.html

@Bagpussdreams No i do not, as i said earlier Hamas are barbaric in their tactics and methods.

However, that does not excuse the actions of the IDF, either Israel is better than Hamas, or it is not, you appear to think the aims justify the means and the IDF can do no wrong.

I don't, i think Israel is sowing the seeds for a 100 years of terrorist attacks on them, it will also embolden attacks here in Europe too, i remember the murder of Israeli athletes, sky jackings, more recently we ve seen the murder of innocents in Paris, Manchester etc.

Look the IDF, like pretty much every force, can make mistakes, can do wrong. However, there is a huge difference between targeting and torturing children as a deliberate tactic, and children being unavoidably caught up in an air strike or other military offensive.

There is no parity.

I keep seeing this. Talking to my kids teacher, about how all this is blowing up in school, I mentioned how, in the Middle East, I had heard casually expressed admiration of Hitler’s genocide of the Jews, the teacher responded ‘Israeli’s can be racist, I was in a taxi from the airport and the driver warned me to be careful of the Arabs because they rip you off’.

This teacher couldn’t see the difference, the lack of parity between supporting the genocide, the extermination of a race of people, and having a prejudiced and negative view of a ‘race’ of people.

Wariness is not as bad as murderousness. They are not on a par.

Speaking of 'murderousness', which side just killed around 20,000 people?

Do you consider all killings of civilians in wars to be murder?

There’s a space between discriminate and indiscriminate shooting and bombing of people and even Biden has said more care is required. You must have seen graphs of the number of civilians and also specifically children killed in this « war » by the IDF versus other wars.

Oh great. This discussion has resorted to ‘if you don’t agree with me you support Hamas’ and ‘but Hamas are worse’.

Innocent civilians being killed in a war is wrong, you can dress it up in as many fancy words as you want, but they still end up dead and it is still wrong. The number of innocent civilians being killed shows that something is very very wrong.

Yes.

It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder. - Albert Einstein.

I’m sure there will be some soldiers who try to adhere to a moral code, but find themselves backed into a corner which leads them to do something they never thought they would. I feel for those soldiers. However, I don’t think that is what has happened in this instance and many of the other examples that have been widely discussed.

Agree with @PeasfullPerson I was just reading that Gallant and others are keen on doing a 'pre-emptive' strike on Lebanon. They have been reined in from doing it so far, but the idea is that to stop Lebanon getting heavily involved in a war...they will start a war by striking first. This is all getting out of control, and some one with common sense and a backbone should rein it in.

You seem to be sticking your fingers in your ears and going “LA LA LA”. Your summary is missing the point.

Anyway, we have much trench warfare any more, so it is hard to fight a war without civilians casualties.

Do you disagree with Israel declaring war? Are you a pacifist?

You are perfectly entitled to be a pacifist, but out of interest, what do you believe Israel should have done after October the 7th if not declare war?

I can’t think of anything to say other than that seems like a very bad idea! I’m a bit lost for words.

Agree the international community now need to step in. Israel is carrying on with impunity and the statements being made by their ministers are more and more extreme. October 7 can't be used to justify what is currently occurring. There is simply no justification whatsoever for it and has gone far beyond reasonable self defence.

You said, "I think the soldiers who shot them did not have cool, calm, collected minds." Well trained and disciplined soldiers will have cool calm minds. People who are unsuitable (not everyone is suitable) should be weeded out during their training. The fact is they weren't up to it and 3 innocent men died. No excuses.

I believe that the Israeli government should have been more intelligent and moral in the way they defended themselves. I’m not going to say Israel, because I don’t want to put this on the people of Israel.

PS I thought the way you characterised me was quite unkind and unnecessary. I would find it easier to consider your point of view if you didn’t do that.

He got shot because of the colour of his skin. It was disgraceful and they did it deliberately.

I expect Israel to respect the internationally accepted rules of war.

I don’t think you can guarantee that, especially with national service. It’s not like ancient Sparta where you could train the fear and self-preservation instincts out from childhood. Human beings are not machines.

National service is the big flaw. Professional soldiers who know what they are doing are much more reliable and obviously better trained. Why bother with lots of training for someone doing a couple of years national service compared to rigorous training for a professional soldier who has signed up for maybe 15 or 20 years.

You believe the shooting of de Menezes was a racist killing by the Met, not an innocent civilian bearing a close-ish resemblance to the failed bomber they pursued, and bungled communications meant he got confused with him?