Page 2 | IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

Ostryga · 15/12/2023 22:12

After seeing the IDF shoot a 10 year old boy in the head whilst trying to hide nothing they do surprises me anymore. They don’t give a fuck.

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:18

Humdingerydoo · 15/12/2023 19:13

Great quote, but that's not what happened. Israel killed them thinking they were suicide bombers and then informed the families, and the world, straight away. So sharing that particular quote seems very, very off.

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The OP was sharing a quote from a released Israeli hostage of Hamas. These were their exact words. There can be nothing “off” about sharing exactly what a former Hamas hostage said, in their own words.

The only difference between what this hostage feared would happen and what happened in the case of the hostages IDF killed is which excuse was selected. They are both “thought they were a threat” type excuses.

Humdingerydoo · 15/12/2023 22:18

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:18

The OP was sharing a quote from a released Israeli hostage of Hamas. These were their exact words. There can be nothing “off” about sharing exactly what a former Hamas hostage said, in their own words.

The only difference between what this hostage feared would happen and what happened in the case of the hostages IDF killed is which excuse was selected. They are both “thought they were a threat” type excuses.

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I mean off in terms of what the thread is about.

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:21

Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 19:39

Israel's position on hostages has for years been pretty hard-nosed, basically because they are used to Hamas manipulating things by using hostages and they have had to make some tough decisions in the interests of the greater good.

It's not that they don't care about the hostages, more that they know that caring about them will be exploited to serve terrorism:

"Since the birth of the state of Israel in 1948, the threat of illegal border crossings has been a pervasive fact of daily life. The trauma of losses suffered as a result of terrorism has always been felt on nearly all levels of society. Terrorism has threatened the country’s deterrent capability. As a result of all these factors, Israel has adopted a tough and uncompromising policy against terrorists in general and hostage-takers in particular. No concessions are made during a hostage situation; a rescue operation should be mounted as soon as all preparations are over and once the tactical situation permits it; and all incidents must be terminated close to their inception, preferably 24 hours."

Imagine being in that position.

This article is pretty old: it dates from 2002, so before the 2011 prison swap deal with Hamas whereby 1,027 prisoners were released in exchange for Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. Many of these went on to repeat further acts of terrorism.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/israeli-response-hostage-taking

The article is over twenty years old and does not reflect the current approach of Israel’s war cabinet or IDF.

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:25

Humdingerydoo · 15/12/2023 22:18

I mean off in terms of what the thread is about.

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The thread is about the real and present danger to the Israeli hostages from IDF. It is asking, given the number of Israeli hostages killed by IDF is increasing day on day, and their families are getting angrier and angrier- do we think Israel will change its tactics? What an Israeli hostage released only weeks ago has reported regarding the conditions and the danger they were in while being held hostage in Gaza right now is completely relevant to the thread. Who better to say what the danger is to Israeli hostages than someone who was very recently one of the hostages living it?

Humdingerydoo · 15/12/2023 22:29

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:25

The thread is about the real and present danger to the Israeli hostages from IDF. It is asking, given the number of Israeli hostages killed by IDF is increasing day on day, and their families are getting angrier and angrier- do we think Israel will change its tactics? What an Israeli hostage released only weeks ago has reported regarding the conditions and the danger they were in while being held hostage in Gaza right now is completely relevant to the thread. Who better to say what the danger is to Israeli hostages than someone who was very recently one of the hostages living it?

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I foolishly thought the thread was about the three hostages who were sadly killed by the IDF today. My bad. I should've known it was actually about how evil Israel is, like every other thread.

Anyway, I have nothing further to add to this discussion as it's not what I thought it was, so I'm off.

Hiddenmnetter · 15/12/2023 22:37

I would have thought that bringing their words up when they’ve been shown to be untrue (the IDF didn’t blame Hamas) would mean it is a bit of a diversion isn’t it?

FOJN · 15/12/2023 22:41

"Parading" naked men is a misnomer for a fairly standard military practice that we are only getting to see thanks to social media. How would you check a crowd of men for explosives, knives, etc and keep them under control? It's about as much "parading" as the B-list celebs photographed in their bikinis at a distance through zoom lenses.

Who filmed and posted the video to social media?

It's not asking suspects to remove clothes which breaches the Geneva Convention, that is, as you say, standard military practice. Parading, yes, parading them through the streets, keeping them semi naked once you have established they are not wearing a suicide vest or in possession of weapons, asking them to pretend to be surrendering by handing over weapons, filming them and uploading to social media is humiliating and degrading treatment and is a breach of the Geneva Convention.

I'm staggered that you would compare it to celebrities photographed in their bikinis. Photographs taken with long range lenses are an invasion of privacy but no one is forcing celebrities, at gun point, to go out in public in a bikini.

feralunderclass · 15/12/2023 22:41

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/12/2023 20:10

That's because they are not fighting a regular army.

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Exactly, they are fighting civilians. Half of which are children.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/12/2023 22:46

feralunderclass · 15/12/2023 22:41

Exactly, they are fighting civilians. Half of which are children.

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No, they are fighting Hamas who are dressed in civilian clothing,

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:54

Pizdietz · 15/12/2023 20:02

I'm not a war strategist and without being on the ground in Gaza and without a history of living in that place, and without having access to the decisions being taken by the IDF from one moment to the next, and without access to the factors playing into those decisions, and without any experience of dealing with Hamas as a Gazan civilian or an Israeli, etc etc etc, I am basically talking out of my arse, just like everyone else on here trying to make sense of things.

To the points you raise, my feeling is that if Hamas had done what it was supposed to do and built a decent infrastructure in Gaza, instead of focusing all its considerable resources on stockpiling weapons to attack Israel and creating a rabbit warren of tunnels to avoid attack, and siting missile launchers around hospitals, schools, mosques, etc... then Gaza would not be on its knees relying on charity from outside to supply the basics for survival.

It is also clear from the ratio of metric tonnes of explosives dropped vs actual deaths that civilian casualties are being minimised, especially considering the nature of the conflict (trying to reach Hamas underground via sensitive targets).

"Parading" naked men is a misnomer for a fairly standard military practice that we are only getting to see thanks to social media. How would you check a crowd of men for explosives, knives, etc and keep them under control? It's about as much "parading" as the B-list celebs photographed in their bikinis at a distance through zoom lenses.

I note the use of fashionable terminology "collective punishment" (reinforcing the notion that Israel is committing war crimes). All wars can be called collective punishment, that's kind of what a war is.

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if Hamas had done what it was supposed to do and built a decent infrastructure in Gaza,

What do you mean, what it was supposed to do? They are terrorists they are not anything else. All the infrastructure in Gaza has been paid for many times over by nations of the UN, channeled to international NGOs and UNWRA via Israel itself. Even all the taxes Palestinians pay go to Israel and Israel sends on some to the PA, not to Hamas. Hamas’ funds came from illegal activities only.

siting missile launchers around hospitals, schools, mosques, etc.
You are definitely not a military analysts or strategist. Hamas doesn’t have any missiles. Hamas has rockets. They are not the same thing. They also use mobile rocket launchers so they are not sited anywhere. There are only allegations that they launch them from nearby to schools, hospitals and mosques, which even if they do it is also not an exception to international law allowing retaliatory strikes on schools, hospitals and mosques because these are mobile launchers, not fixed launchers- so any retaliatory strike would not take out a rocket launcher because it won’t be there. That is a war crime. It’s not a notion, it’s a fact.

It is also clear from the ratio of metric tonnes of explosives dropped vs actual deaths that civilian casualties are being minimised
No, the opposite is clear no matter which way you analyse the facts on the ground or the statements from the Israeli’s themselves, that civilian casualties are not being minimised.

"Parading" naked men is a misnomer for a fairly standard military practice
No, it’s not an SOP for civilians or even actual POWs to strip them semi naked, force them to kneel bound and blindfolded in the dirt for hours on end or to load them up in such a way into dump trucks. It is a violation of the Geneva Convention.

I note the use of fashionable terminology "collective punishment" (reinforcing the notion that Israel is committing war crimes). All wars can be called collective punishment, that's kind of what a war is.
It’s not a notion, war crimes have been committed, many of which involved illegal collective punishment. To say all wars can be called collective punishment is such a bizzarre conclusion to come to. It’s akin to saying all sex can be called rape. Or all taxes can be called government theft.

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 22:54

feralunderclass · 15/12/2023 22:41

Exactly, they are fighting civilians. Half of which are children.

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I've seen so many horrific stories whereby newborn babies and mothers are shot at point blank range, unarmed young children shot in the head as they walk away, journalists killed by snipers, indiscriminate bombing of ambulances etc etc

Saying Hamas are there in these cases is not an acceptable excuse.

Hamas is not a sheltering mother or her newborn baby, cruelly killed at point blank range. Hamas is not a 92 year old woman. Hamas is not a naked man waving a white flag. Hamas is not a journalist doing his job. Hamas is not a child trying to get a toy he's dropped.

Outrageous.

Original poster

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 22:54

Honestly, I wouldn't bother, the differing levels of empathy depending on if we're talking about Israelis or Palestinians are strong with that poster.

It's a shame they see things in such black and white and can't fathom the idea that perhaps Israel may be approaching this entire thing in a way that won't save hostages or minimise civilian death.

But beyond them I've come to recognise a lot of Pro-Israeli people are unable to think critically when it comes to Israel, its whole hearted blind acceptance.
You can't reason with individuals who have such unnwavering devotion when it comes to one specific topic.

OP posts:

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 22:55

Humdingerydoo · 15/12/2023 22:29

I foolishly thought the thread was about the three hostages who were sadly killed by the IDF today. My bad. I should've known it was actually about how evil Israel is, like every other thread.

Anyway, I have nothing further to add to this discussion as it's not what I thought it was, so I'm off.

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It might help to read the entire OP in future. Note the last sentence of the OP was
Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

Parkingt111 · 15/12/2023 22:58

@Struggggggling I have seen reports that Mossad will be travelling to Qatar tomorrow to resume hostage negotiations. It's not verified yet but it was reported on either sky or BBC.
I don't know if it is due to what happened today regarding the death of the three hostages

Molymoly · 15/12/2023 23:00

So they shot three unarmed men because they thought they were suicide bombers.
I wonder how many times they've used that excuse when shooting unarmed Palestinians.

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 23:00

Hiddenmnetter · 15/12/2023 22:37

I would have thought that bringing their words up when they’ve been shown to be untrue (the IDF didn’t blame Hamas) would mean it is a bit of a diversion isn’t it?

What do you mean “untrue”? The former hostage said that is what they feared would happen. There is nothing not true about what the hostage feared for weeks while they were held captive by Hamas. The only difference between what they feared would happen to them, compared to what did happen to 3 other hostages is the explanation IDF had for killing unarmed Israeli hostages.

The former hostage wasn’t wrong about the most critical part of their fear- their life was in danger from the IDF- their own military who is supposed to be there to rescue them.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/12/2023 23:00

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 22:54

I've seen so many horrific stories whereby newborn babies and mothers are shot at point blank range, unarmed young children shot in the head as they walk away, journalists killed by snipers, indiscriminate bombing of ambulances etc etc

Saying Hamas are there in these cases is not an acceptable excuse.

Hamas is not a sheltering mother or her newborn baby, cruelly killed at point blank range. Hamas is not a 92 year old woman. Hamas is not a naked man waving a white flag. Hamas is not a journalist doing his job. Hamas is not a child trying to get a toy he's dropped.

Outrageous.

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What I am saying is that Hamas are not wearing uniform as a a regular army would.

Surely no one would disagree with that?

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 23:02

FOJN · 15/12/2023 22:41

"Parading" naked men is a misnomer for a fairly standard military practice that we are only getting to see thanks to social media. How would you check a crowd of men for explosives, knives, etc and keep them under control? It's about as much "parading" as the B-list celebs photographed in their bikinis at a distance through zoom lenses.

Who filmed and posted the video to social media?

It's not asking suspects to remove clothes which breaches the Geneva Convention, that is, as you say, standard military practice. Parading, yes, parading them through the streets, keeping them semi naked once you have established they are not wearing a suicide vest or in possession of weapons, asking them to pretend to be surrendering by handing over weapons, filming them and uploading to social media is humiliating and degrading treatment and is a breach of the Geneva Convention.

I'm staggered that you would compare it to celebrities photographed in their bikinis. Photographs taken with long range lenses are an invasion of privacy but no one is forcing celebrities, at gun point, to go out in public in a bikini.

Just a friendly day out on Gaza beach.

Parkingt111 · 15/12/2023 23:02

There's also ofcourse pressure from the families of the hostages to find a diplomatic solution for the release as using military force to rescue them has not really worked so far.

Hiddenmnetter · 15/12/2023 23:03

Hellenika · 15/12/2023 23:00

What do you mean “untrue”? The former hostage said that is what they feared would happen. There is nothing not true about what the hostage feared for weeks while they were held captive by Hamas. The only difference between what they feared would happen to them, compared to what did happen to 3 other hostages is the explanation IDF had for killing unarmed Israeli hostages.

The former hostage wasn’t wrong about the most critical part of their fear- their life was in danger from the IDF- their own military who is supposed to be there to rescue them.

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Obviously. But what does that add? Really? IDF announces “we killed 3 Israeli hostages thinking they were suicide bombers”

what does it add to say “someone was afraid this would happen” except to say “I was afraid it would happen and they’d tell the world it was Hamas.” Thats the hook, the catch. The implication that the IDF would have lied, when in fact, they appear to have told the truth. It’s a non-sequitur, and appears to be intended to paint the IDF as liars when they don’t appear to be.

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 23:05

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/12/2023 23:00

What I am saying is that Hamas are not wearing uniform as a a regular army would.

Surely no one would disagree with that?

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I was replying to @feralunderclass 's post.

I don't disagree on the point that some Hamas members would not wear a uniform.

However I am sad and shocked at the way they are killing those who are obviously not Hamas and are unarmed and innocent civilians in the ways I have listed.

Newborn babies shot at point blank range etc.

Original poster

Struggggggling · 15/12/2023 23:05

Parkingt111 · 15/12/2023 22:58

@Struggggggling I have seen reports that Mossad will be travelling to Qatar tomorrow to resume hostage negotiations. It's not verified yet but it was reported on either sky or BBC.
I don't know if it is due to what happened today regarding the death of the three hostages

I hope that's true, I know there's also been an increase in Palestinians in the West Bank being detained by the IDF. I hope that the innocent civilians can all be released but tbh I don't know what relief the Palestinians will get if they return to the West Bank or Gaza.

OP posts:

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 23:06

Hiddenmnetter · 15/12/2023 23:03

Obviously. But what does that add? Really? IDF announces “we killed 3 Israeli hostages thinking they were suicide bombers”

what does it add to say “someone was afraid this would happen” except to say “I was afraid it would happen and they’d tell the world it was Hamas.” Thats the hook, the catch. The implication that the IDF would have lied, when in fact, they appear to have told the truth. It’s a non-sequitur, and appears to be intended to paint the IDF as liars when they don’t appear to be.

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IDF have lied many times. Why should they be trusted?

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/12/2023 23:07

fluffylittlebear · 15/12/2023 23:05

I was replying to @feralunderclass 's post.

I don't disagree on the point that some Hamas members would not wear a uniform.

However I am sad and shocked at the way they are killing those who are obviously not Hamas and are unarmed and innocent civilians in the ways I have listed.

Newborn babies shot at point blank range etc.

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If they are not wearing uniform then how do you distinguish them from the civilians?