IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

[Struggggggling]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza/

Previous hostages warned this would happen, tragic events. There is no winner in this conflict only losers.

Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

I read somewhere that they make most of their weapons from recycled spent Israeli shells.

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/11/middleeast/hamas-weaponry-gaza-israel-palestine-unrest-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

Yes, that article says that Hamas gets most of its weapons from Iran.

They don't wear uniforms because they don't want to be distinguishable from civilians.

@noblegiraffe

100% you are correct. Some do wear a military uniform of sorts, but most do not wear a uniform and it is, as you say, specifically because they want to make it more difficult for IDF to identify them. This is a challenge for IDF and not an exception to international law that then allows IDF to shoot anyone over 3ft tall that they see. The IDF drones, artillery, tanks, fighter jets, navy gun ships and such are a challenge to Hamas, which similarly does not except them from international law. This is an asymmetrical war.

Only state rank and file militaries are required to wear uniforms, this does not apply to groups like Hamas. The requirement to wear a uniform also doesn’t apply to state special forces or guerilla/resistence/civilian militia type fighters either. Hamas, being outnumbered by a factor of 10 to 1, is going to operate as if they were guerilla or special forces fighters to even the asymmetry a bit, just because they are terrorists it doesn’t mean they are not going to exploit every advantage they can have by not being an official state military.

It’s never been the case that 100% of combatants wear a uniform in the history of wars. That’s one of the reasons why a number of civilian casualties is recognised to be unavoidable.

Some do wear a military uniform of sorts, but most do not wear a uniform and it is, as you say, specifically because they want to make it more difficult for IDF to identify them.

Yes, and not, as a pp claimed, because Israel won't allow them uniforms.

Spent shells stay where the shells were fired. All the spent artillery shells are outside Gaza. The only spent shells they could conceivably get their hands on would be tank shells left behind by tanks inside Gaza. But these are not reusable. I suppose they could be melted down and reforged as scrap metal, but there isn’t really the time to manufacture new weapons on the go. Too, they have analysed Hamas’ arms and it’s clear the bulk of their rockets and other arms have been smuggled in via different routes, the arrests of 4 suspects in Germany were arrested under suspicion of smuggling munitions via Berlin to Hamas.

I would imagine that released hostages would be told that unless they say and do what Hamas instruct them to say and do upon release, that the fellow hostages who they love and care about will be tortured and killed.

Well, Israel won’t allow them uniforms too. So it’s one reason why. I do think that even if Israel sent them nice shiny uniforms, they would probably burn them and then piss on the ashes.

The other reason is that they don’t have to is because of the type of armed group they are. A good analogy is gangs vs police. Police have to wear a uniform, unless they are undercover plain clothes special type police. If a group is designated as organised crime, as criminals, they are not expected nor required to wear a gang uniform to fight fairly against police.

Terrorists are the criminal organisations of war. Just like police are expected to know a civilian from a gangster despite both wearing the same sort of clothes and not shoot civilians, it’s the same with soldiers. Soldiers are also expected and trained on distinguishing between civilians and terrorists, and required to avoid as much as possible killing civilians when fighting terrorists.

Well, Israel won’t allow them uniforms too.

Where did they get the ones that they are wearing in the hostage handover videos?

You do realise they smuggle stuff in?

It is a possibility as is the possibility that the hostages being whisked away and debriefed by the Israeli Shin Bet (intelligence) that they were also warned not to disparage the war effort. The freed hostages are under a lot of pressure from both sides. As if they haven’t been through enough already.

Smuggled in.

Even having a weapon shouldn’t mean that someone is immediately identified as a member of Hamas. Would you not want a weapon to protect yourself? As I’ve said before on other posts Ukraine started training civilians how to handle guns so they could protect themselves.

Still! It would be a start wouldn’t it! It would be an improvement on killing children!

Yes, I do. Some other people appear not to, which is why they are making stupid claims like Hamas don't wear uniforms because Israel don't let them, and that they make most of their weapons out of Israeli shells not that they are bankrolled and supplied by Iran.

Anything bad Hamas does being blamed on Israel is getting to absolutely fucking ridiculous levels of stretch.

Yeah, funny how they can find a way to source everything but uniforms.

An armed force that won't wear uniform puts in danger civilians.

In Israel, and the Palestine Occupied Territories, Palestinian civilians cannot get a gun permit, so yes it’s a big clue they are a terrorist if they are in Gaza and are toting an AK-47. Shooting someone that is armed, even if they are a technically a civilian, that’s considered an unavoidable civilian casualty.

It gets more complicated in West Bank and East Jerusalem because Israeli settlers can have guns and Ben Gvir has handed out thousands of free assault rifles to Israeli citizens without the proper training. So there is a real danger that armed Israelis can be mistaken for a Palestinian terrorist. That is how/why Castleman was shot by IDF as they mistook him for one of the Hamas attackers at the Jerusalem bus stop.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/police-say-soldier-fatally-shot-israeli-mistaken-palestinian-attacker-2023-12-01/

It’s why many of the violent settlers tend to be clean shaven and adopt Hebrew ethnic hair styles- to minimise the risk of being mistaken for an armed Palestinian terrorist at a glance. Castleman was a hero, a former policeman, one of the good men in the world who stopped the two Hamas shooters from killing more innocent civilians. He was then shot by IDF. Wounded, he called out in Hebrew saying he was Israeli & Jewish, and tossed his ID card towards the IDF soldiers. They then shot him again in the head, killing him. He was 37.

I imagine it is terrifying. Innocent men should have as much protection as women and children. I worry about the impact on these men (the ones that survive) of being brutalised and treated like animals, and accused of being something their not, most likely in addition to having members of their family murdered by the IDF. This is not the way to peace.

Hamas are not breaking any international law by not wearing uniforms because of the type of armed group they are. Similar to how our special forces often do not wear uniforms in the field. Neither are required to. And in a conflict that is so asymmetrical in Israel’s favour, they would be stupid to wear uniforms.

I need to check my understanding. Did you say Israeli settlers in the West Bank can get a gun permit but Palestinian's can’t?

I agree that someone with a gun in a war zone is far more at risk of being assessed as an immediate threat and subsequently killed. However, that doesn’t mean they are definitely a member of Hamas. It’s not a foregone conclusion.

Yep, totally agree. Hamas don't wear uniforms because they are a terrorist group and it suits them to look like civilians.

Conventional armies are required to wear uniforms to help minimise civilian casualties.

@Struggggggling this was just now from sky's military analyst

He says it is "pretty evident" that none of the three men would have been armed.
"Where would they have found weapons? If they had escaped, they wouldn't have had weapons and they would have been a civilian attire," Bell explains.
"So, first of all, why were they shot in the first place?"
Secondly, he says, more people are injured by single gunshot wounds than are killed.
This implies that a "hail of bullets" likely killed the hostages, Bell says. "It probably wasn't one or two bullets."
"This talks to the sort of professionalism of the IDF... what on earth are they doing targeting people and killing them when they don't have weapons?"
Bell explains that this incident could explain a growing number of casualties amid the IDF's ground operations in Gaza.

I was thinking more about this and actually this does make sense. If they killed the hostages like this who had no weapons/unarmed and only realised later on that they were possibly hostages then in a densely populated area like Gaza how many other civilians have been killed like this that we know nothing about?

What type of armed group are they?

Source for that or is it just pure speculation on your part? I go for the latter.