IDF shoot hostages in Gaza after 'mistakenly identifying them as a threat'

[Struggggggling]

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-kill-israeli-hostages-mistakenly-identifying-hamas-gaza/

Previous hostages warned this would happen, tragic events. There is no winner in this conflict only losers.

Do you think Israel will now change tactics or if any histage swaps will take priority?

The last remaining hostage shouted out to the soldiers in Hebrew, they shot him anyway.
There is no excuse.

Going back to the hostages shot by accident, apparently a soldier took fright and yelled out that they were terrorists. It's an area where they'd encountered many traps and suicide attacks
There probably are incidents of deliberate cruelty in this messy and hateful war, and they will be held to account one day, but I don't think this is one of them

I ve heard no reports of Hamas using suicide bombings in this current conflict, if they are IDF isn't reporting these & they don't appear to be widespread.

I think hunting down 3 semi naked men and killing them is deliberate, yesterday ch4 reported the murder of a young girl in a hospital who was there following the amputation of her leg (in a previous bombing that killed her parents) she wanted to be a doctor, she was killed when an unexploded shell blew a hole in the wall near her..... we have different definitions of cruelty.

Israel are behaving exactly as Russia is in Ukraine, in fact its worse, as Gaza cannot shoot down the IDF missiles and rockets.

You think they actually wanted one of their own hostages dead, then?

I'd suggest that this proves how they have come to distrust and fear everything around them.

There's no excuse @Pizdietz , no matter how hard you look.

And I'll thank you not to second guess what i think about anything.

That's not what we were laughing at.

I was asking you a genuine question.

Ok, in that spirit i really have no clue what they were thinking. I agree they are probably young and terrified but i feel this can't be an isolated incident and they may have killed gazan civilians in similar circumstances. I do think they, the Israeli army, must know they have apparent carte blanche to kill at random here with no consequences.

Yes, that sounds fair, unfortunately. I don't know about the carte blanche, as I'd imagine they'll be rightly bollocked for transgressions such as those mentioned here, but assessing and processing it all will probably have to wait until things are less chaotic 😕

Yes, absolutely

I've heard no reports of Hamas using suicide bombings in this current conflict, if they are IDF isn't reporting these & they don't appear to be widespread.

This article today suggests that they are. Given the widespread use of suicide bombings against Israel in the past, I'd be surprised if they had changed tactics.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-778655

I find it very difficult to say anything about the soldiers who shot the hostages and how trigger happy or not they are, because I've never been in a combat situation and therefore am not even remotely qualified to comment.

If the IDF are effectively shooting first and asking questions later, I don’t see why the world should give a crap whether this is because they are scared, racist, or vengeful - whatever the excuse, it is not justifiable to be killing people they have effectively trapped there on this scale. If you hate and fear your enemy that much, you have effectively become just like them. Israel needs to hold a mirror up to itself and ask if it really thinks its behaviour will get rid of Hamas, or just be mass murder.

I'm just trying to imagine what "erring on the side of caution" looks like in a war situation where your opponent lures you into traps by dressing in the uniforms of those they kill, playing recordings of crying children, boobytrapping the bodies of victims, etc.

None of that applies in the case of these 3 men.

You need to focus on what the IDF came across here: semi naked men, signs pleading for help, speaking in Hebrew.

Yes that would suggest a cautionary approach.

I really can't imagine being in the situation the hostages faced, or the soldiers faced. It is horrific and heartbreaking all at the same time.

But i object when i hear this is a war.
To me Ukraine and Russia are at war. Russia was the aggressor and Ukraine mobilised an army as best they could and fought back, with the west's blessing and help. But Gaza and Israel doesn't feel like a war, it feels like an alliteration of a whole country and its people that are utterly powerless.

I don't know what the response should have been to the hamas attack. Israel couldn't let that go, it was too horrific. Bit the response they did, and are continuing genuinely feels like a complete genocide of a country already diminished by years of oppression.

Its really too complicated for me to get my head round, but the human suffering involved, on both sides, breaks my heart.

Obliteration not alliteration sorry

Haha, I understood you! There's posh, having predictive text autocomplete a word like "alliteration" 🤓

Its really too complicated for me to get my head round, but the human suffering involved, on both sides, breaks my heart.

Hurraaaaaaahhhhhhhh, yesssss!!!!! at last, we agree on something🫂

Perhaps one reason we all clash so much on here is what we see in our mind's eye when we talk about Israel. I understand that for many here, what they're referring to is the right-wing idiots in government.

Whereas I am thinking more of people like this guy, one of the few to survive repeated hand grenades thrown into the shelter. He describes seeing his girlfriend shot at point blank by laughing Hamas, and so on and so on. He is utterly traumatised by the unfathomable experience of a festival that went from heaven to hell.

At the end, he talks about going into the IDF to fight against the pure evil he's experienced, and he is clearly just absolutely at a loss to know what else to do. As someone who used to frequent psytrance parties myself, this is so tragic and disturbing because the psytrance scene is genuinely pacifist and inclusive - unless you're a complete weirdo, you can't open your mind and spirit with psychedelics and still go around believing racist bullshit. That's one of the things that makes these gentle parties such a joy: you know you are safe, surrounded by love and respect in a way that you never really get to experience in the "outside world."

So when I see everyone here monitoring every detail of the IDF's conduct in a horrible mess of a situation, mocking and belittling them in their desperate efforts, to me it's just adding cruel insult to deep injury. That's not to say I think everything they do is right, obviously.

My initial reaction to the news of 7 October was to automatically feel more sorry for the Palestinians, since Israel gets US backing etc. But the more I learn, the angrier I get with Hamas and its obscenely rich leaders for fucking up everyone's lives, in both Gaza and Israel. It grieves me to see 100% of the blame placed at Israel's feet, and posters claiming that the atrocities of 7 October are perfectly mirrored (or exceeded) by the actions of the IDF. Errrmmmmm, no. It's not the same thing at all. Not until IDF go around shrieking with laughter as they maim and rape, chopping bits off women and kicking them around, torturing and killing children in front of their parents and vice versa, phoning home to gloat over the atrocities committed, etc; not until the broken bodies of slain Gazan women are paraded in Israel to be further desecrated and spat upon, etc etc...

If I could have just one wish granted, it would be to put the clock back and have none of this happen at all. But then, of course, we get into knots arguing about how far to put the clock back 🤯

Thanks for explaining your thoughts. We all do see things so differently and all for varied reasons, there's probably so many nuances here and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
I've been on mn forever and have never seen such heated debates...or been told off by mn so many times, I'm really trying to reign myself in a bit now. Its hard to watch whats going on and not get caught up in it.

BTW, whats a psytrance party, I've never heard of that but i am old right enough...

😁 🥰 Well, it's a bit hard to explain...

Here's an example of one in the UK, just picked at random from YouTube.

It's a small independent gathering of people who understand that we are all part of one tribe, the human race, and none other, and want to celebrate that by having fun together.

You tend to meet very creative, fascinating, kind, hilarious, talented people, although I am probably none of those things but was still treated like a princess despite knowing no one when I first arrived. Everyone is welcome, all ages, all cultures: all judgement is meaningless and everyone looks out for each other.

I first started going when I was in my mid-50s, in fact met DH#2 that way. It was not unusual to make 100-odd friends over the course of a weekend. I stopped going about 10 years ago (moved abroad etc).

Quite a few drugs tend to be going around: primarily spliffs, MDMA and LSD, which connect you and make you more sensitive to what's going on around you... just the opposite of alcohol. Sitting around a blazing fire sharing stories with laughter, curiosity, gentleness, and an open heart.

When I first discovered what fun I could have at a psytrance party, I never wanted to go out to a pub in town ever again. It feels brutal to be surrounded by drunken idiots. Whereas it's literally blissful to stay up all night dancing and making friends and watching the sun rise together.

The contrast between this, and what happened next at Nova Festival, is just mindblowing. I mean, it would be bad enough having to run for your life for hours after 2 nights without sleep, but on all other levels the whole experience is just unthinkable.

This is not to make any comparison with the suffering of (say) Gazan children or families in the kibbutzes, I am just sharing my own understanding of the scene and the perspective it gives me.

P.S. Not everyone takes drugs! Load of yoga/pure folk. Just not the place for anyone who'd be shocked by drug taking (c.f.: lack of judgement/fun to be had 😜).

Oh, and I will shut up in a minute, but it's interesting that you mention the Russia/Ukraine war. My DH is Russian and he made friends with some Ukrainians over the summer, introducing himself in a shop and inviting them round. They've become good friends and are now living in our house while we do a bit of travelling over the winter. A win-win situation, and proof that war is bullshit if you sincerely respect people. I suppose I wish there had been just a glimmer of respect for Israelis since 7 October, instead of the open celebrations and marches against them.

i doubt that.

OK one more thing, here's the Facebook promotion for Nova Festival. As you can see, it is just like the UK psytrance scene. It's truly a global community. Everyone recognises each other from one year to the next. Because I stopped going years ago, I've lost touch with people, but the friends I made back then are grieving some of the folk missing from the dance tents since Nova 💔

I hope this gives you a better idea of what they had in mind: a celebration of the human tribe, with people from all over the world.

https://www.facebook.com/TRIBEofNOVA/videos/849976279837533

I bet you do 😁
That says a lot about you and me!

It does look amazing. But...and I'm honestly not trying to have a squabble....i look at that and think what polar opposite the young people's lives were like in Gaza only a few miles away. The contrast must be huge. I can understand why people from all round the world would want to be at something like that but the stark contrast to young lives over the border is painful. Would there be anyone there from Gaza i wonder? Or even the west bank? I'm genuinely wondering.