What did Hamas think they would achieve through October 7?

[CroccyWoccy]

I don’t normally post in this section so please forgive the potentially naive or badly phrased question (I don’t like the word ‘achieve’ but struggling to think of a better one.

Without wanting to get into whether any particular actions are justified or proportionate, it seems that it was entirely foreseeable that an attack such as the one that took place on Oct 7 would trigger an Israeli response on the scale we have seen.

With that in mind, I cannot understand Hamas’s motivation for planning such an attack, given the outcome of death and destruction with Gaza was inevitable? Or by trying to attribute some kind of rational strategy of cause and effect to Hamas, am I completely misunderstanding how they operate?

It seems to me you only can’t understand what Hamas wanted if you can’t understand the difference between Hamas and Palestinians and see the two words as entirely interchangeable.

Hamas have been spectacularly successful - they have recruited tonnes of brutalised and traumatised new recruits full of burning hate for Israel and its supporters to terrorist organisations, and have further destabilised the region and the world, emboldening any enemies of the current world order to take advantage of the chaos to see if they can shift global power balances. Extremists like chaos and suffering and Israel under Netenyahu has done everything Hamas could have hoped to show itself to be as capable of brutality as its enemy and as difficult as possible for any countries which claim to be more “moderate” to support it without looking corrupt and hypocritical themselves.

What Palestinian is going to trust Israel after Israel has decided it has “got rid of Hamas” by the means it is employing now? And has Israel learnt nothing whatsoever from the West’s experience of “getting rid of” terrorist groups? What exactly have we succeeded in getting rid of to date? A big fat zero, in reality - where we “get rid of” one group, multiple other groups even more filled with hate and even more willing to commit appalling crimes proliferate as a result. So what if Hamas doesn’t care much about the loss of Palestinian lives, either? If you are condemned to live under extremists one way or the other, it’s preferable to live and die for your own extremists than to wait to be killed by the other extremists. You might even be able to convince yourself that if you are vile and destructive enough, you’ll eventually scare off the opposition - that’s certainly what Netenyahu seems to think.

it seems that it was entirely foreseeable that an attack such as the one that took place on Oct 7 would trigger an Israeli response on the scale we have seen. With that in mind, I cannot understand Hamas’s motivation for planning such an attack, given the outcome of death and destruction with Gaza was inevitable?

It’s baffling you because the reality was that it was not foreseeable or inevitable that the Oct 7th terror attack by Hamas would lead to Israel’s response. The narrative that Hamas knew with any certainty the full scale and ferocity of Israel’s retaliation before and better than Israel itself knew is an apologia for Israel’s war crimes.

Wars are not always good side fighting bad side, very often it is all bad and who ever wins strategically gets to paint themselves as the good side. The good side is often called the right side of history.

@Bells3032 yes sorry I should have explained that a bit better!

What are you insinuating now? You obviously don't believe the horrors of October 7th despite the overwhelming evidence and reports plus the actual filming by Hamas.

Well it got so bad that a court ruled it as illegal for Israel to continue doing so in 2005 however there has been reports since then that it is still in practice

It’s baffling you because the reality was that it was not foreseeable or inevitable that the Oct 7th terror attack by Hamas would lead to Israel’s response. @MercanDede

I am sorry but that's laughable. They knew exactly what would happen. They just never thought everyone would leave them to it eg Iran.

It’s baffling you because the reality was that it was not foreseeable or inevitable that the Oct 7th terror attack by Hamas would lead to Israel’s response. The narrative that Hamas knew with any certainty the full scale and ferocity of Israel’s retaliation before and better than Israel itself knew is an apologia for Israel’s war crimes.

After 2014, which kicked off over way less, it should have been abundantly clear. Hamas leadership is many things but presumably they are not stupid.

@braticus I don't know why they need an independent investigation from the un who took three weeks to address the massacre. Luckily there is Hamas' own video footage to rely on

The fact you 'suggest' anything about the rape and torture of men and women says a lot about you. Or some men and women.

What fairy tale thinking is this? The neighbours are the most right wing Israeli government, who have illegally settled israeli settlers in illegally occupied territories and hate palestinians. Israel has violated 28 UN resolutions. Do you think a normal human being will take this lying down and" build bridges" with their oppressor? You call it troublmaking " from the comfort of your armchair and in denial of the oppression by israel. Historical records as well as genetic studies indicate that modern Palestinians mostly descend from local ancient levantines who converted from judaism and other levantine mythologies to christianity and later to islam. So European Israelis are killing the original Jews indigenous to the region.

Do you think a normal human being will take this lying down and" build bridges" with their oppressor?

You sound like you are justifying the October 7 attacks?

@Bigminnie1

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_five_palestinian_children_as_human_shields

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2007/mar/09/israel

https://www.justiceforall.org/palestine/condemning-the-use-of-palestinian-children-as-human-shields-by-israeli-occupational-soldiers/

Also adults used too
https://www.btselem.org/topic/human_shields

The 1,147 massacred by Hamas were around 800 civilians, the rest were IDF soldiers. If they lack all rational thought, and are motivated by ideology and emotion only, then what does that say about Israel who has killed over 18,000 civilians and an estimated 3,000 Hamas terrorists? If one day of massacre is “barbarity” then what do you call sixty-eight days in a row of massacres?

Impersonal massacring is not any less barbaric than personal massacring my opinion.

Yawn. I am talking about palestinians resistance to israeli oppression. No human being would accept this forever. People fight back. I have no idea why Hamas committed atrocities on israeli civilians. I can't read their mind. And I don't agree. But let's not forget decade's of Killings by Israel. I pray the hostages are freed .

Yawn. I am talking about palestinians resistance to israeli oppression.

Would you consider 7 October to fall into that category, presuming that doesn't make you fall asleep entirely?

The disparity is because other countries listen because they don’t have a back with veto power so the UN only needs to tell them once.

Israel ignores the UNGA because it knows the US will veto any UNSC resolution to take any actions, so it’s just words. The UNGA is stuck repeating itself like a broken record hoping Israel might listen or the US might stop allowing Israel to break international law with no consequences.

It seems to me you only can’t understand what Hamas wanted if you can’t understand the difference between Hamas and Palestinians and see the two words as entirely interchangeable.

I mean they're supposedly the governing body in Gaza, you'd normally expect the governing body to have some concern for the land and the people they are governing. Even if only because the land and the people are what supports the governing body's continuing existence.

I have seen no authenticated evidence of this.

Should Israel have taken October 7th lying down? Or do you think their response is justified?

I have seen no authenticated evidence of this.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-775777

Witness testimony from the hostage. You could call him a liar I guess.

Well for starters they are quite right that thousands and thousands of people have been killed.

Apart from filming sets created by idf to spread their bs narrative re shooting scenes to make it more believable as Palestinians are quite bad at acting but who can blame them as they are civilians. hummus was here, hummus was there. Look hummus hid there that's why we bombed the fuck out of the hospitals and schools.

So Hamas knew exactly what Israel would do, better than Israel itself but their omniscience or crystal ball did not extend to Iran? Um ok.

I think you are putting Hamas on some sort of evil genius word dominator pedestal while demoting Israel to manipulated mug status. It’s your view that is the laughable one when you consider how the asymmetry in technology, resources, contacts and so on are heavily weighted in Israel’s favour.