What did Hamas think they would achieve through October 7?

[CroccyWoccy]

I don’t normally post in this section so please forgive the potentially naive or badly phrased question (I don’t like the word ‘achieve’ but struggling to think of a better one.

Without wanting to get into whether any particular actions are justified or proportionate, it seems that it was entirely foreseeable that an attack such as the one that took place on Oct 7 would trigger an Israeli response on the scale we have seen.

With that in mind, I cannot understand Hamas’s motivation for planning such an attack, given the outcome of death and destruction with Gaza was inevitable? Or by trying to attribute some kind of rational strategy of cause and effect to Hamas, am I completely misunderstanding how they operate?

Which answers the question asked by this thread.

I would have said exactly this.

I also think Hamas didn't think it through properly and prepared badly. They knew sanctions would occur and yet did nothing to prepare for that.

To answer your question OP, I think Hamas were trying to destroy any chance of a peaceful resolution to the conflict with Israel. That is why they publicly glorified their utterly hideous, nightmare-ish cruelty and torture and sexual torture. And why they targeted the peace supporting communities in Israel. They don't want anyone to support a peaceful resolution anymore.

To what end though? Do they care if Gaza is completely destroyed in the process?

Simple answer is no. the leaders of hamas don't give a shit about the people in Gaza.

I mean not really. it ended because the UK and USA blew Germany and Japan to smiterhins and killed millions of people. The setting up of the UN was just based on the league of nations which appeared after WW1 to stop this happening again and barely 20 years laters it was entirely pointless

What makes you think Hamas want a two-state solution?

IMO this is a win for Hamas. Israel has reacted with exactly the ferocity Hamas hoped for. The whole point of Hamas's incursion was to cause as much horror and outrage as possible. If their objective had been to take hostages in order to negotiate for the release of prisoners, they could have done so without going on a murderous rampage of rape and destruction.

Hamas deliberately carried out a pogrom. They deliberately triggered Israel's massive response against their own people. They deliberately undermined the growing peace between Israel and her Arab and Muslim neighbours.

So far, this is a win for Hamas.

No. Their actions long term have shown that they don't really care about the people of Palestine.

I think your mistake it to think of Hamas a rational players with a realistic, pragmatic political goal they are trying to achieve.

And surely the barbarity of Oct 7th showed you that was not the case. They are motivated by ideology and emotion, not political pragmatism.

I don't want to suggest that there exists some kind of satisfactory answer that "justifies" what happened on Oct 7, but the idea that anyone would rationally think that the attackes would help Palestinians seems absurd.

And yet most of the international pressure is on Israel not Hamas. Unless you think that large portions of the global population are terrorist supporters you should ask yourself why? The attacks on the 7th October were brutal and indefensible but so is depriving civilians of food, water, shelter, and medical care whilst you spend two months bombing the shit out of them and destroying their homes; that is not self defense.

Well it is kind of self defense. Israel's objective now is to get rid of Hamas whatever it takes. Once they have achieved their objective, then they will be safe. It's just unfortunate that the innocent will have to suffer in the process.

Hamas can think themselves very lucky that Thailand haven't attacked them too after what they did to the Thai citizens. How do Hamas explain that? Thailand did nothing whatsoever to them, so what is their excuse for killing and kidnapping all those thai citizens?

The IDF do not aim to kill children. Hamas did when they maimed, tortured, raped and kidnapped on October 7th. The horror was far too violent and graphic to detail here.

Yes Hamas wanted to stopped SA normalising relations with Israel and cause pain, murder Jewish people including the babies the old (not Israeli soldiers - just the first Jewish people they could reach) start a war. They won. They have been v successful and they will do the same again as soon as possible.

Egypt flooded Hamas tunnels near their birder with Gaza (built with EU aid money) years and years ago.

The children of ISIS were also children. Did anyone post on MN and say we should not have fought against ISIS?

Hamas do not want peace. If IDF stopped fighting a country (this is fact) would be obliterated, if Hamas stopped fighting the war would end. I don’t know what is right but Hamas is violent, extremist group who haven’t held elections for almost 20 years. They are still firing rockets - amidst the carnage and horrors. Rockets need fuel, the terrorists have clean water and food and medicine in the tunnels. This has been well planned. They believe the lives of their people is worth sacrificing.

1,000,000 Jewish people were forced to leave their homes (where they had lived for 1000s of years - persia, syria, etc ) in Arab nations in 1948 against 200,000 Palestinians who left what is now Israel. Only the Palestinians have a refugee status that carries on through the generations.

The ideology of Hamas is not to help Palestinians. I know that WE assume an elected politician at least pretends to have the well being of the voters as a motivation . These people are terrorists. What was Bin Laden’s motivation for bombing the twin towers? This wasn’t going to help Muslims in the US or outside the US.

the IDF do not aim to kill children

Well in that case they are spectacularly incompetent then aren’t they?! Because they’ve certainly managed to kill thousands of them.

And power. Hamas are also, I strongly suspect, motivated by enjoying feelings of power and control. The attacks of Oct 7th surely showed how much they enjoyed exercising power and control over other suffering humans.

They have power and control over Palestinian people whilst the conflict continues.

They are likely to lose that power if there is peace. Which is perhaps why they are trying to destroy any likelihood of peace.

I am glad you have asked this and look forward to reading the responses.

I get that Hamas wanted to provoke a reaction possibly to show the world how unreasonable a response they would get and if they'd nipped over the border to maybe try to take over a village or even attack a lot of army-aged men I'd get it.

But what they actually did (attacking women and children and the elderly) appalled all who saw it. It is hard to be on the side of the Palestinians when their leaders think this is OK. I understand that Israel needed to react to stop this ever happening again but the scale of the suffering of Palestinians makes it impossible to support them.

If Hamas had attacked in a way which is deemed more acceptable under warfare I'd expect there wouldn't be too much conflict in the eyes of the world over who to support. They must know this, I really do not understand why they did what they did.

Yes because Hitler ignored it.

I think they knew Netanyahu's response would be horrific and encourage the world to turn its back on Israel, whatever the cost to the people of Gaza. And they were right. The leaders on both sides are truly evil people.

Amen to that.

Every two state solution ever made was always shot down by Israel. The whole plan is to drive Palestinians out to Jordan and Egypt from the very start and they simply don't want Palestinians there. Remember Hamas wasn't there not so long ago but people were still living in dungeon conditions pre Hamas.

The people supporting Israel has never been in the shoes of those living in the West Bank or any parts where their homes and lands were seized because of new settlements and being treated worse than cattle's and living under an apartheid regime. Those that are freely able to work, own homes, send their kids to public schools, have access to healthcare and be fairly and equally treated and be able to vote honestly are the worse judging people from the comfort of their own lives whilst supporting a sadistic regime through their taxes and actually cheering on.

The simple divide you see on mn when it comes to privileged people sending their kids to private school than those that cannot afford is astonishing and seriously first world problems compared to the simple rights of existence in a so called democratic secular state backed by the west and funded by the west.

As a human being, no one in Palestine deserves the life they have endured by a fascist gov for decades and no child deserves to die in horrific conditions that have been deliberately aimed at indiscriminately . Secondly no civilian in Israel deserves to be at the receiving end of the resistance through violence because of their fascist leadership who sees people worse than animals. There's only one political movement before Hamas that needs to be held accountable just like Israeli journalist Gideon Levy saying on Oct 7th, this is all on you Netanyahu!

I agree with this. A bit like a martial arts move where you use your adversary's strength against them- the horrifying events of 7/10 were designed to provoke a horrifying reaction, which they have done.

I think Hamas may have hoped to bring neighbours into a war with Israel. Im sure they wanted to prevent Israel normalising relations with Saudi Arabia. I’m also sure they saw an opportunity to foment division in the West, since

1. israel has a very right wing government and could be relied upon for a strong military response which would be hard for even its supporters to defend wholeheartedly
2. the situation in Gaza gets arguably disproportionate attention and sympathy in the West compared to eg Syria, Yemen, etc
3. the Left has adopted Gaza/Palestinians as a righteous cause and there are influential voices that can be relied upon to view things from a Palestinian perspective (Israel as ‘colonisers’, oppression of ‘brown people’ and other ill-informed but fashionable takes on the situation)
4. due to the above, the length of time that has passed since the Holocaust (eg my grandfather was one of the first British soldiers to go into one of the concentration camps after WWII and my dad saw the effect of that on his father -my dad is now 80 and these kinds of memories are dying out), plus your average person’s ignorance of history and of antisemitism, there are many useful idiots to parrot antisemitic talking points and spread antisemitism and opposition to Israel
5. in the US, despite strong support for Israel, the Democrats have to be conscious of their voter base as well
6. the sheer human tragedy of what’s happening in Gaza day after day, as Hamas surely knew it would, compared with somewhat fading memories, for some, of Oct 7 (even though there are still hostages)
7. because Israel is a democracy and Hamas are a terrorist organisation, the world will naturally put pressure on Israel
8. which brings me back to point 1, that Israel feels isolated and embattled which seems to be making it less willing to listen to its allies.

Hamas is cynically allowing this crisis to continue because they don’t care how many lives they sacrifice - in fact the more, the better for the footage.

that’s my take on it at the moment, anyway.

Hamas couldn't give a shit about the Palestinians. They want to kill Jews. Not just in Israel, but all around the world.

Hamas has no interest in benefiting the Palestinian people. If they did, they would have spent the billions they have been given on the Palestinians in Gaza, not on funding their billionaire lifestyles and on rockets being fired continuously into Israel- well before the current war.

I'm Jewish, and that morning initially all I heard was 400-500 Israeli dead and assumed it was 'just' rocket attacks or something, and even just then my first thought was 'Oh my God, Netanyahu's response is going to be truly appalling'

@Sussurations

I think Hamas may have hoped to bring neighbours into a war with Israel. Im sure they wanted to prevent Israel normalising relations with Saudi Arabia.

I'd just query whether it was Hamas or those elsewhere who, it is rumoured, have some control over Hamas and/or input into their operations and also the operations of other similarly minded groups in the region.

Other than that FWIW I pretty much agree with the rest of your take on this...

I notice you condemn the 'savagery' before and after 7th October, but condone that which took place on that date.

okey dokey.