What did Hamas think they would achieve through October 7?

[CroccyWoccy]

I don’t normally post in this section so please forgive the potentially naive or badly phrased question (I don’t like the word ‘achieve’ but struggling to think of a better one.

Without wanting to get into whether any particular actions are justified or proportionate, it seems that it was entirely foreseeable that an attack such as the one that took place on Oct 7 would trigger an Israeli response on the scale we have seen.

With that in mind, I cannot understand Hamas’s motivation for planning such an attack, given the outcome of death and destruction with Gaza was inevitable? Or by trying to attribute some kind of rational strategy of cause and effect to Hamas, am I completely misunderstanding how they operate?

Yes, it is the other side of the coin that alleges that it was all a Hamas conspiracy to make Israel raze Gaza to the ground and massacre 10,000 children. Just like Israel didn’t make Hamas do Oct 7th, neither did Hamas make Israel do Oct 7th to the present.

Hamas aren’t really a governing body in the normal sense. They are more like a cartel drug boss sort of governing body of a prison.

Israli right wing government refused to engage with Hamas. Gaza is open air prison, cut off from everything. Do you think they wanted this life eternally? If all leading authorities cared most about their people and land then there would be no wars in this world, ever. This is not unique to Hamas or Palestinians. Sometimes leaders make difficult choices , maybe the long term goal is seen rather than the tragic journey to get there. Israel could have swapped the Palestinian prisoner's but Netanyahu made a tough choice too. He has done very well to bomb Gaza to destruction and kill palestinian civilans to create a fertile ground for future Hamas militants thus undermining Israeli peoples future security.

https://inkstickmedia.com/israel-rejected-peace-with-hamas-on-five-occasions/

@CroccyWoccy - Do you expect that of The Islamic State? Do you believe that of the Taliban? Do you think Hamas is a terrorist organisation, a dictatorship, or a democratic leadership? Do you really expect the people ruling a strip of land blockaded by Israel for over 15 years to think and act anything like you?

No Israel should not have taken this lying down. No country would. I get that any country would act extreme to deter repeat of any future incident . But then again this didn't happen in a vacuum, this did not start on 7th Oct. Israeli government is to be blamed for bringing this upon their people.

That isn’t witness testimony. Testimony means you sign your name to it under warning of perjury.

It’s an unverified post by a journalist, Boker, on Twitter (X) claiming that an unnamed hostage has alleged this.

UNRWA has challenged Boker, a reporter with Israel’s Channel 13 television station, on his reporting. The agency demanded that Boker either substantiate the report — calling it a “claim” — in greater detail and provide UNRWA with more information, or delete it, as it “may amount to disinformation.
Over the weekend, Boker wrote that he would do neither of those things.

On Monday, US Senator Marsha Blackburn demanded an investigation into Boker’s report.

And, in all honesty, if I had already been painted as a terrorist likely to commit atrocities, I would consider it a win to finally expose the true nature of those controlling the actions of the other side. Netenyahu and his extremist government are not an appropriate body to govern Israel. The West already knew Hamas was not fit for purpose in Gaza.

I'm no expert on the region.

But what I see is two powerful groups of men (and in the background, their families, and a range of hangers-on), trying to create security and notoriety for themselves for generations to come.

The Israeli government on the one hand, and the Hamas leadership on the other.

The true way out of this absolutely catastrophic situation, is long-term economic development on both sides; security, trade, integrated inter-community education for children, and tolerance. And sharing of land and resources. But these are difficult solutions, and they undermine everything that the leaders on the respective sides stand for today.

It's only when there's really strong economic stability in nations/communities/local areas, when young men and women have opportunities to do things with their lives other than have lots of babies or be some sort of 'big wheel' in the local neighbourhood; that these sorts of actions will diminish on both sides.

I don't think it really comes down to religion, culture, history or much else. It's about rich, influential and ruthless people securing their position now and for the future.

Whose fault is this? What I see is that both sides have been squaring up for a while.

I see a lot of that too. Thank you for such a thought provoking and insightful post.

I'm no expert on the region.

But what I see is two powerful groups of men (and in the background, their families, and a range of hangers-on), trying to create security and notoriety for themselves for generations to come.

This is a really important point that bears reiterating. The fact that it is by and large men who are the warmongers on both sides of the conflict. It is something that gets lost amongst all the geopolitics, religious and historical context of a complex conflict.

Did Hamas want to galvanise regional support for their cause by shining a spotlight on IDF atrocities, and the mass murder of woman and children(even before the IDF committed the new tranch of killings)? Biden warned the Israelis about this trap.
Did they want to put the Palestinian plight back on the international agenda? It is now.
Did they hope Iran would intervene against Israel? Or have
Hamas just been used by Iran to stir up shit, and bring more disaster on Palestinians? Or were they manipulated by Putin, to destroy support in the Global South for Ukraine? by showing up Wests hipocracy, over Ukrainian vs Gazan deaths.

This is a useful article which provides a lot of relevant context:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/why-hamas-attacked-when-it-did

Thanks @CroccyWoccy
Good summary

@lovelygreenglasses
Agree entirely.
Although Israel is prosperous (with a lot of help from the US). So why such viciousness from them - even before Oct 7?

Thank you @MercanDede and @TheLonelyStarbucksLovers.

I see the Israeli/Gaza situation as a zero sum game. There are so many rights and wrongs that it's impossible and distracting to try to balance or decide between them.

What we do know is that the situation since 1948 has been somewhat of a pressure-cooker that, to my mind, makes whatever went before that largely irrelevant.

Since 1948 there's been such massive economic and societal development globally, along with massive increases in population in the disputed areas in particular, and with significant democratisation of media, that there are now far more people who are contesting the same prizes with ever-increasing awareness and more violent means than ever.

I am a child and grandchild of inter-generational trauma of this type. Of where following one of other of some terrible leadership is the only way to 'be someone' or be safe in your own community. Where families have been split apart ideologically. And where opportunities for the majority of people on either side to prosper have been tragically lost in the noise and chaos of bloodshed and terror.

The only thing that truly stops it is a willingness from the populace on both sides to come to a position of 'enough'. To be tired of the posturing, wearied by the violence, and sick to the back teeth of death and suffering borne by ordinary people on both sides. And... To voice this through a reasonably functional political system.

That's my take on it anyway. And whilst it's depressing to say, I think the current situation is therefore intractable.

@Thereissomelight in my view because vicious is easier, it's binary. It's, 'you're our enemy, and we will destroy you', and that's it. And it can be spun into a 'win' for the aggressors pretty-much whatever happens.

The true and right alternative isn't such a win. It requires patience, compromise, nuance and restraint.

The viciousness is therefore an 'all in' mindset to deliver a message of a warped sort of heroism... not one of moderation and solution-finding.

And it breaks my heart.

Hamas are hiding behind women , children and innocent civilians. Hamas are cowards, but that doesn’t make the IDF incompetent, clever cowards because they have world wide support - a terror organisation that claims power without a vote for 20 years. If IDF wanted to bomb the whole of Gaza they could, but they don’t. Hamas WOULD blow up the whole of Israel if they could.

At the beginning of this conflict, i.e. Oct 7th, reports said that there were about 2.2 million Gazans in Gaza. A few days ago, on radio or TV, someone said 2.3 million. In the Israeli bombing of Gaza what percentage of the Gazans have been killed? What percentage of buildings have been destroyed? Does anyone know? Yes, I can do sums but I don't have the raw scores.

Two or more Palestinians = Palestinians
Two or more Gazans = Gazans
Two or more Israelis = Israelis

Why do some people write about Gazans and Israeli's? Where does the unnecessary apostrophe come from, I wonder.

Autocorrect.

What did Hamas think they would achieve?

1.) Lots of death, suffering, gloating about rapes and feelings of excitement by Hamas and hope that there would be unbridled joy and excitement from the Gazans and West Bank Palestinians about invading impregnable Israel
2.) Leave Israel no choice but to launch a massive attack aimed at eradicating their foot soldiers whilst their leaders live it up in Qatar licking their lips
3.) Increase Anti-Semitism globally through skilful propaganda
4.) Jettison Israel's warmer relationships with Arab states
5.) Allow their civilian population to be decimated through their use as shields and create sympathy for Gazans
6.) Create a war between Muslims and Jews

Just a short list.

The only thing that truly stops it is a willingness from the populace on both sides to come to a position of 'enough'. To be tired of the posturing, wearied by the violence, and sick to the back teeth of death and suffering borne by ordinary people on both sides.

Hear hear. Every war ends with a ceasefire, peace treaty and rebuilding safety and security for everyone in the region. My thought is why the fuck can’t the elderly warmongering leaders just skip the performative mutual slaughter of the innocents and go straight to the inevitable sitting around a table and drawing up terms for a lasting peace? Why is it necessary to kill, kill, and kill for weeks, month, years when the end stage is unavoidable? You are right, they have to decide when it is enough. Enough death. Enough destruction.

Most of the world has voted for it having passed into enough.

In an enclosed, confined space that is the most densly populated place on the planet, Hamas can’t physically be away from civilians. There isn’t the space. If Israel had allowed the Gazan civilians to leave Gaza through checkpoints, then they could have had a nice clear battleground. But Israel chose to squeeze 2.3million people into ever smaller bits of ground and then bomb them all. This does make them either incompetent or genocidal. The ICC will decide.

@MercanDede "This does make them either incompetent or genocidal. The ICC will decide."

Why choose. I think they're both.

@MercanDede

Hamas can’t physically be away from civilians.

Not in the miles of tunnels they have?