Page 3 | To ask why the only countries that didn't vote for a ceasefire were USA and UK?

stillholly · 2023-12-09T23:12:56+00:00

All other countries in the UN voted for a ceasefire. USA put their hand up and voted against a ceasefire. UK abstained from voting. Can anyone explain to me their reasoning for not voting for a ceasefire?

rileynexttime · 10/12/2023 08:09

@stillholly another person here that's glad you asked this question .
I read this (from the Guardian/Observer which seems to becoming a MN equivalent of the DM ) and was horrified. But not surprised
"The Biden administration has used an emergency authority to allow the sale of about 14,000 tank shells to Israel without congressional review, the Pentagon said on Saturday.
The state department on Friday used an Arms Export Control Act emergency declaration for the tank rounds worth $106.5m for immediate delivery to Israel, the Pentagon said in a statement.
The shells are part of a bigger sale that was first reported by Reuters on Friday that the Biden administration is asking the US Congress to approve. The larger package is worth more than $500m and includes 45,000 shells for Israel’s Merkava tanks, regularly deployed in its offensive in Gaza, which has killed thousands of civilians. ."

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:10

With the US if you think about their history, particularly Iraq, it was always quite clear that they wouldn’t support a ceasefire, they essentially can’t show support for a ceasefire as doing so would be condeming their own actions.

Exactly, how do the US usually respond to “foreign” terror attacks?

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 08:12

TheSuggestedAmendment · 10/12/2023 07:52

It’s this kind of stupidity I can’t be doing with.

Low grade TikTok conspiracy level anti-Americanism. It’s such a privileged kind of snark. The Americans do not need Israel’s money at an actual cost geopolitical stability (which is worth many $$¥$$¥$ more).

Also, FYI, NATO is trying to preserve its ordinance not use it.

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I agree with you. It is really is low grade and privileged. It’ll be a different story if NATO has to manage without the US. Anyone not informed by SM would think about that and implications for Europe

TheSuggestedAmendment · 10/12/2023 08:12

stillholly · 10/12/2023 08:01

So at a very simple level and I realise all of this is the complete opposite of simple. USA are thinking that if they agree to a ceasefire they will not be able to sell as much arms and not make as much money. So they would prefer innocent civilians to die in order to make a quick buck.

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This is such a crushingly stupid conclusion to have reached and shows limited understanding of either a) geopolitics in 2023 or b) the vastly superior economic value of No War to international business.

What it DOES reveal is this kind of teenage anti-USA, they’re in it for the money don’t care about people -type that is so wrong. The USA doesn’t want dead Palestinians. It doesn’t want dead civilians anywhere.

TheSuggestedAmendment · 10/12/2023 08:14

rileynexttime · 10/12/2023 08:09

@stillholly another person here that's glad you asked this question .
I read this (from the Guardian/Observer which seems to becoming a MN equivalent of the DM ) and was horrified. But not surprised
"The Biden administration has used an emergency authority to allow the sale of about 14,000 tank shells to Israel without congressional review, the Pentagon said on Saturday.
The state department on Friday used an Arms Export Control Act emergency declaration for the tank rounds worth $106.5m for immediate delivery to Israel, the Pentagon said in a statement.
The shells are part of a bigger sale that was first reported by Reuters on Friday that the Biden administration is asking the US Congress to approve. The larger package is worth more than $500m and includes 45,000 shells for Israel’s Merkava tanks, regularly deployed in its offensive in Gaza, which has killed thousands of civilians. ."

This is not the motivation for voting against a ceasefire.

You’ve put 2+2 and come up with 5.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:15

The US went to war with Iraq for breaking 2 international laws for 8 years. Israel has broken 62 to date

I was talking more in the context of civilian deaths due to the war on terror. Apparently more than 4m when including the indirect ones eg result of damage to economies, infrastructure etc.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:17

*It’ll be a different story if NATO has to manage without the US. Anyone not informed by SM would think about that and implications for Europe

These threads always lack nuance & geopolitics is complicated contrary to what people see on tic toc

Newbutoldfather · 10/12/2023 08:19

It is easy to call for a ceasefire if you aren’t involved.

who wouldn’t prefer peace to war?

But, if the Hamas infrastructure is still broadly intact, Israel will just return to the status quo ante, with a hostile terrorist organisation on its border, lobbing missiles at it.

KenAdams · 10/12/2023 08:22

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jasflowers · 10/12/2023 08:24

USA always had to vote against, look at what they have said in support of Israel v recently?
UK - who knows? we aren't a player in any of this.

Either way, Israel wouldn't have obeyed any resolution, tbh the UN is a toothless tiger and haven't prevented any war, China/Russia blocks US resolutions and vice versa, its just a game, look who voted for a ceasefire? yet conducts war in Europe /helps supply munitions/funds through buying Russian gas/oil.... its all a fucking joke.

What Hamas did on October 7th is beyond evil, the suffering and death caused is terrible but the suffering/grief of an Israeli family being killed is exactly the same as a Palestinian family, the Gazan's are living in pure terror, no idea when death will come & if a bomb doesn't kill them, starvation will.

Israel will wreck Hamas but they wont destroy them & this war will act as a recruiting sergeant for decades to come.

Israel is ensuring its own insecurity as well as giving a helping hand to the anti Semites.

rileynexttime · 10/12/2023 08:25

@TheSuggestedAmendment I agree it's not a complete answer to the OP,s question but to me it's a very significant factor .
Money is always a hugely motivating device in any decision .
And there's no need for your sarcastic comment just because I have a different view from you

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:25

Either way, Israel wouldn't have obeyed any resolution, tbh the UN is a toothless tiger and haven't prevented any war, China/Russia blocks US resolutions and vice versa, its just a game, look who voted for a ceasefire? yet conducts war in Europe

True

Gummybear23 · 10/12/2023 08:26

China will be one.
Slowly watching and waiting.
They hate the USA and UK
China has friends.

MissyB1 · 10/12/2023 08:26

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PurpleChrayne · 10/12/2023 08:30

Since Hamas broke the last ceasefire, what is meant by "calling for a ceasefire" is for Israel to put down arms and allow Hamas to complete their self-stated aim, which is to kill all Jews.

There would be a ceasefire if Hamas gave back the hostages and stood down.

No amount of whataboutery and mental gymnastics can disguise the anti-Semitism behind all of this. The world doesn't like when Jews defend ourselves.

Gummybear23 · 10/12/2023 08:34

This does seem to be the plan. However the power and support that Israel is relying on i.e The USA will be not be the power it is now.

The dynamics will change.

Sususudio · 10/12/2023 08:34

There are dozens of terrorist groups in the world whose stated aim is to wipe out the West, or all Hindus, or all non-Muslims, or random groups of people they hate. That does not mean Israel should be allowed to carry out a collective genocide.

The world loves it when brown people are dehumanised. No amount of whataboutery and mental gymnastics can disguise that fact either.

mindthespace · 10/12/2023 08:35

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:15

The US went to war with Iraq for breaking 2 international laws for 8 years. Israel has broken 62 to date

I was talking more in the context of civilian deaths due to the war on terror. Apparently more than 4m when including the indirect ones eg result of damage to economies, infrastructure etc.

The number of deaths when you consider Iraq x2, Afghanistan etc are horrific.

An American life isn't worth more than an Iraqi life. Just like an Israeli life isn't worth more than a Palestinan life.

The only person who can put a stop to it is Biden. But for now he won't. Norman Finkelston put out a YouTube video saying he thinks it will carry on until Christmas.

We can only hope and pray a ceasefire happens soon.

Plikujyhtg · 10/12/2023 08:36

electriclight · 10/12/2023 07:47

And you can't express any sympathy with Israel without being accused of supporting genocide and ethnic cleansing.

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You don't get called an Islamaphobe though do you? Why is criticism of Israel perceived rooted in religion but not the other way round? I don't give a shiny shit who Israelis are, whether they are a nation of Jews, Hindus or Rastafarians - they ARE committing horrendous crimes by exploiting anti semetic rhetoric - which is a very serious threat for ordinary Jews globally. The more Netanyahu and his war mongering goons cry anti semitism at any criticism, the more they are diluting the real dangers of anti semitism.

TheSuggestedAmendment · 10/12/2023 08:36

rileynexttime · 10/12/2023 08:25

@TheSuggestedAmendment I agree it's not a complete answer to the OP,s question but to me it's a very significant factor .
Money is always a hugely motivating device in any decision .
And there's no need for your sarcastic comment just because I have a different view from you

Yes - money is always relevant. And war stops people doing business. It is a huge NET COST to the global economy, not to mention a voter-mood negative for incumbent governments such a Joe Biden’s.

This isn’t a ‘different view’. This is a fact.

EasternStandard · 10/12/2023 08:38

TheSuggestedAmendment · 10/12/2023 08:36

Yes - money is always relevant. And war stops people doing business. It is a huge NET COST to the global economy, not to mention a voter-mood negative for incumbent governments such a Joe Biden’s.

This isn’t a ‘different view’. This is a fact.

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You are right. Didn’t the US scale back funding for the Ukraine war recently. All this stuff about how they are profiting, it’ll feel different if they stop funding.

thatone · 10/12/2023 08:38

How can it be anti-Semitism to object to killings of so many women and children - children and babies who do not support Hamas? To object to the starving and denial of water to these people. To object to indiscriminate bombings in an overpopulated space where nowhere is safe.

I cannot conceive how, even for Israel supporters, this could be conceived as anti-Semitism.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:40

Money is always a hugely motivating device in any decision

Money is a massive factor but it’s a bit more complex than we (the US) don’t want to stop selling arms to Israel & need innocents to die to make money.

RedHotWings · 10/12/2023 08:41

Hamas initiated the war with a horrendous massacre. There was a ceasefire which Hamas then broke the terms off as they didn't want to release all the women and children hostages first, as was the terms of the ceasefire - and then fired rockets into Israel. Hamas did these things knowing that it would start a huge war. The international pressure should be on Hamas to release all hostages and withdraw from the Gaza strip, in exchange for an enduring ceasefire.

RedHotWings · 10/12/2023 08:43

And Israel isn't committing genocide. Those accusations are projecting the crimes of Hamas onto Israel. Yes civilians are dying and yes that it is terrible, but that happens in war, war that Hamas started.