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Conflict in the Middle East

To ask why the only countries that didn't vote for a ceasefire were USA and UK?

350 replies

stillholly · 09/12/2023 23:12

All other countries in the UN voted for a ceasefire.

USA put their hand up and voted against a ceasefire.

UK abstained from voting.

Can anyone explain to me their reasoning for not voting for a ceasefire?

OP posts:
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9
Circularargument · 10/12/2023 09:06

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 07:47

It’s like if Britain has started a war in Northern Ireland and killed all of republican people even if they weren’t members of the IRA. It’s genocide.

People in NI are British citizens too though & innocent people did die & many did have the prejudice that an Irish accent = IRA. Some argue the potato famine was a genocide.

Some people don't know any history.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:06

What I want to know is why peole here are so cold-hearted when it comes to the lives of the innocent children in Gaza?

Who are these cold hearted people? I don’t think i’ve ever seen so much commentary, protests, threads about a conflict.

Circularargument · 10/12/2023 09:07

baklavagoddess · 10/12/2023 08:45

Yep

Hamas won't stop until Israel ceases to exist. Your point being?

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:08

Some people don't know any history.

True dat

Plikujyhtg · 10/12/2023 09:09

Circularargument · 10/12/2023 09:07

Hamas won't stop until Israel ceases to exist. Your point being?

Israel won't stop until they have the entire land from the Palestinians. Your point being?

Thereissomelight · 10/12/2023 09:09

covenoflittlewitches · 10/12/2023 08:50

I don't think the UK and US have any choice tbh.

Both at this time are extremely weak, both of them have had their arses handed to them by the Middle East in recent years. Israeli intelligence has probably been shielding them from the worst of it.

If Isreal don't come out of this with a resounding 'win' and a massive show of power then I suspect the UK and US know that it will embolden Iran and we (the west) will be in deep shit.

Don't underestimate the pure hatred the Middle East has for the West - and some of it is justifiable, some of it ideology driven.

What happened in October to the Israeli people is beyond barbaric,i will never ever forget seeing those videos when I woke up that morning. what's happening to the civilians in Palestine is barbaric too. This is a savage war.

The implications of it have filtered through to our safe countries in turn making them unsafe. I am shocked at how fast the pro Palestinian mobilised - the next day - even before Isreal retaliated. That mobilisation was already planned in advance.

There is so much more to this that we will never know and too many unanswered questions

How did Isreal, the best intelligence service in the world not know this was going to happen?

How did Hamas even get in when its so heavily guarded?

How did the protests mobilise so quickly the next day with thousands of flags and placards?

Why are Hamas in Quatar shopping, eating out and taking selfies?

Why are Hamas saying the Palestinians need to sacrifice themselves and its not being shown all day every day on the news?

Why are actors being used in multiple scenes, same guy in multiple scenarios?

None of it makes sense and it's made me very worried about what's happening in the U.K. I think the next few years are going to be very dangerous for us

Don’t underestimate the sheer hatred the Middle East has for the West

I don’t. But it’s not across the board. Or wasn’t until this happened. This will certainly make any previous hatred a lot worse. Thanks to this warmongering shitshow - and the blatant disregard for all attempts at deescalation by the UN and ICC - it looks like we’re going to all have to weapon up indefinitely. Sorry but as I am not Israeli myself I will deeply resent my young DC having to pay for their actions.

Gummybear23 · 10/12/2023 09:11

I didn't say we hate China or vice versa.

I stated that one day china and other key nations will be one of biggest influence and most powerful on the world platform. USA will be kicked to the kerb.

Israel has the support of the USA now but as stated they will not be the most influential force going forward.

electriclight · 10/12/2023 09:14

Just think, if Hamas had stood down weeks ago and returned their hostages, so many innocent lives could have been saved.

Or not delivered their initial attack in the first place.

Where are the marches demanding Hamas return the hostages and give themselves up?

MrsHarrisAParis · 10/12/2023 09:15

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:59

The UK and US have shown the UN and Nato to be a farce. They should be tried at the Hague alongside Israel.

I mean it’s a great statement to type but what does this actually look like in reality?

In reality, the other members of the UN and NATO need to restructure their constitutions. There have to be over-riding principles eg war crimes - that mean a majority vote is enough. The UK and US have shown they are not acting in the global interest or upholding the founding principles of the institutions. Those institutions need to adapt to lessen the influence of bad actors.
Afaik the UK has already been reported for war crimes for its support of war crimes and provision of weaponry to Israel.
If you are unclear on the process, you can read about it on the International Criminal Court website. The Met Police is also collating testimony on war crimes from UK citizens returning from Gaza and Israel. However the UK is currently refusing to share the Met Police evidence (and further evidence gathered by military and security services) with the ICC.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:15

I stated that one day they will be one of biggest influence on the world platform. Move out the way USA

Not sure this will happen tbh? economically they have slowed & big demographic issues. India looks like a contender though.

Keilagh · 10/12/2023 09:15

“I am shocked at how fast the pro Palestinian mobilised - the next day - even before Isreal retaliated. That mobilisation was already planned in advance

How did the protests mobilise so quickly the next day with thousands of flags and placards?”

Social media. The Hamas attack unfolded in real time minute by minute across Twitter & other social media platforms. Palestine supporters literally started gearing up immediately. It was unhinged.

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:16

@MrsHarrisAParis so in reality it’s meaningless?

stillholly · 10/12/2023 09:18

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:08

Some people don't know any history.

True dat

We can have an understanding of history but still not understand the human approach to stopping mass civilian genocide.

You make that statement but offer no insight.

OP posts:
jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:19

@stillholly you have really lost me now?

Savedpassword · 10/12/2023 09:19

Because OP, for a myriad of complex reasons, these countries are prepared to defend the slaughter of thousands of innocents. Man’s inhumanity to man is playing out ‘live’ on our social media channels every day and there are still those who will justify it. Utterly sickening.

Thereissomelight · 10/12/2023 09:20

electriclight · 10/12/2023 09:14

Just think, if Hamas had stood down weeks ago and returned their hostages, so many innocent lives could have been saved.

Or not delivered their initial attack in the first place.

Where are the marches demanding Hamas return the hostages and give themselves up?

Just think, if Israel hadn’t been violently and illegally expanding its borders over the past few years and creating a functional prison in Gaza there might have been less poverty, anger and despair and better relations overall in the region. We’ll never know now though, will we?

Thereissomelight · 10/12/2023 09:21

Just think if Hamas had stood down

But they didn’t. But why kill thousands of innocent children for this?

electriclight · 10/12/2023 09:22

I wonder whether the Israel response would have been different if the civilians of Gaza had expressed horror at the attack, condemned the actions of Hamas and called for the hostages to be returned.

Unfortunately, footage online shows civilians celebrating their return and their actions.

I can see why Israel believes that a majority of civilians support Hamas and their methods, and are less sympathetic as a result.

stillholly · 10/12/2023 09:23

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 08:08

USA are thinking that if they agree to a ceasefire they will not be able to sell as much arms and not make as much money. So they would prefer innocent civilians to die in order to make a quick buck.

a little simplistic

Care to offer an alternative explanation?

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/12/2023 09:25

Just think, if Hamas had stood down weeks ago and returned their hostages, so many innocent lives could have been saved.

Or not delivered their initial attack in the first place.

Where are the marches demanding Hamas return the hostages and give themselves up?

This.

electriclight · 10/12/2023 09:25

"and creating a functional prison in Gaza "

Why was this necessary do you think? Far less prison-like until they started walking into Israel and blowing things up.

"illegally expanding its borders."

Yes, every time they were attacked they expanded their borders. I agree that this was inflammatory. I wonder if we would have peace if they were still within 1967 borders.

MrsHarrisAParis · 10/12/2023 09:25

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:16

@MrsHarrisAParis so in reality it’s meaningless?

Ah I answered in good faith. And as someone who has collated testimonies from previous genocides but I see you're not a serious person. Don't at me or reply to me again.

But for those who are interested in international law, this is the statement from the ICC representative who was in Israel and Gaza:

I have made it crystal clear. The law is not some cosmetic adornment that can be disregarded. It's a fundamental requirement that must be complied with. Schools, hospitals, churches and mosques, dwelling houses are protected and must not be bombed. I've made it clear what the law is in terms of the principles of distinction, precaution, and proportionality. And leaving aside all of those issues, I've made it also abundantly clear that the law can't be interpreted in a way that it denudes it from meaning, that hollows it out, that fails to achieve what the Geneva Conventions were meant to do, which is to protect the most vulnerable of society, babies and children, the old and the infirm, civilian men and women. This is an insistence that is required by parties to the conflict and by Israel. I made that very clear here.
I emphasised again that humanitarian assistance must be allowed in at pace, at scale in Gaza. It is not acceptable. There's no justification for doctors to perform operations without light, for children to be operated upon without anaesthetics. Imagine the pain of operations on children, on anybody, on any of us, without anaesthetics. And also I emphasised that Hamas must not divert any aid that's given. But I was crystal clear that this is the time to comply with the law. It's already late. But if Israel doesn't comply now, they shouldn't complain later.
I emphasised settler violence is unacceptable. It's something we are investigating, we have been investigating, and we are accelerating investigations. No Israeli settler armed with an ideology and a gun can think it's open season on Palestinians. Israel has a fundamental responsibility as an occupying power, I emphasised, to investigate those crimes, to prosecute those crimes, to prevent their reoccurrence, but to ensure justice. And my Office is investigating that to ensure that those rights are also vindicated.
I emphasise the commonality of loss between any parent when they've lost a loved one. And that the law must be given effect to at this time. That's what the men and women of my Office are trying to do.
We need to build partnerships. We need the trust of the Palestinian community. In the same way, we need the trust of the Israeli community and those that have suffered on the 7th of October. But together with determination, we can ensure that the rule of law is vindicated, not by pious promises or acting in haste, but based upon solid foundations that are the result of independent, impartial investigations. And that's why we have the International Criminal Court.

The full statement is here

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:25

@stillholly I already have, just read my posts…

Plikujyhtg · 10/12/2023 09:27

electriclight · 10/12/2023 09:22

I wonder whether the Israel response would have been different if the civilians of Gaza had expressed horror at the attack, condemned the actions of Hamas and called for the hostages to be returned.

Unfortunately, footage online shows civilians celebrating their return and their actions.

I can see why Israel believes that a majority of civilians support Hamas and their methods, and are less sympathetic as a result.

I wonder whether Gazans would have responded differently if they weren't confined to stay within a border their whole lives, attacked with violence by an advanced military to stay in line and if they didn't have their children locked up for 20 years at 12 years old for throwing stones

jesterdourt · 10/12/2023 09:27

@MrsHarrisAParis I’ll do what I like thanks

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