Conflict Israel and other nearby countries

[EasterIssland]

Israel is at war with Gaza. However , this has dragged other countries in the area as well.
weve heard about the problems in West Bank (there is a thread) but also Lebanon where civilians have been killed and journalists have been targeted and killed

they’ve also attacked several airports in Siria.

ive read in the past there was a conflict as well with Yemen and read now this” Yemen's Houthis warn they will target all ships headed to Israel”

it doesn’t sound that post this war living in Israel is going to be safer than before

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/yemens-houthis-say-they-will-target-ships-red-sea-en-route-israel-2023-12-09/

You seem to be having a totally different conversation from what I posted about. Which is interesting but a little odd. Israel has never really had strong friendships in the middle east. I mean 5 countries attacked it the moment it was declared a state. Then contiuned to cause issues or wats over the years. So in relative times even now it is doing much better than before. Plus the last Arab leaders meeting was supposed to be too raise support for taking action or sanctions against Israel. Iran however was badly disappointed because the leaders were not up for that. In fact some basically said whilst they condemn the gazen civilians deaths they will resume business as usual with Israel once this is over. You see the thing people don't seem to get is the Arab leaders don't actually care about Gazens. They just make sound bites to keep their Muslim population happy. In fact most those countries have killed more Palestinians than Israel ever have. Syria tortured, raped and killed 7400 women and children in a refugge camp in matter of weeks for a start and that is without counting the number killed over the years. The other Arab countries see Palestinians as a nuisance and want rid of Hamas at any cost. Hamas is a problem for most their own countries too.

@Trulywonderful

'The other Arab countries see Palestinians as a nuisance'
I disagree. Hamas as a nuisance? Yes
The Palestinians as a whole? Not at all as a nuisance and would be offensive to say unless you have data to suggest so.

Sorry I don't seem to have made myself clear.

You are perhaps correct that the leaders of other gulf states do not really care about Palestinians but their populations do and they will respond if the pressure from their own citizens continues to mount. Israel may have succeeded against it's neighbours in the past but things have changed, a fact the US and most of the leaders of the western world seem to have missed, and those countries are now much stronger militarily and I don't think Israel would prevail in a war on multiple fronts.

People in Europe and increasingly the US do not want to get involved in yet another forever war and any government thinking they could do it without the consent if their citizens will pay at the ballot box. The west has already paid the Ukraine tax for an American proxy war with Russia, which has left Ukraine in ruins and a generation of young men dead, I don't think we have the appetite to set the middle east on fire too, particularly with a developing Russia/Chinese alliance to think about.

Without the support and military aid of the US, Israel will struggle to defend itself.

Oh and don't forget that neither Hezbollah or the Houthis are state actors, Hamas is small fry compared to either of them.

They won't allow them to flee to their countries incase Hamas or other terrorist group members are amongst them

They largely won't give them citizenship even if they for generations. Mostly to help the Palestinian cause but also to lessen the any financial responsibility for them

So yes leaders of surrounding countries do see Palestinian a added nuisance they could do without

If they were bothered about Palestinians them this whole conflict would have been over years ago. They could have declared a Palestinian state when Jordan or Egypt was in charge of the west bank and Gaza. They could step in now and make it impossible for the conflict to continue because Israel and Hamas would hold a ceasefire if a united Arab force policed it. However they simply see the whole conflict and the Palestinians as a nuisance. Sure there is probably a more political word I could use but nuisance seems to some up the feeling the Arab leaders give out

@Trulywonderful once again at a time when they are being killed and bombed indiscriminately in their thousands, to call the Palestinians a 'nuisance' or to say that the surrounding arab countries consider them a nuisance is dehumanising and offensive.
No matter what your own analysis of the surrounding countries domestic policy regarding the Palestinians is.

I don't think they are a nuisance. I said the leaders of other countries think this judging by their actions towards them. Whether you believe this yourself is something else but it is clearly the case because the middle eastern leaders have treatment them as such for many many years

So because you think other countries see Palestinians as a nuisance, that makes it ok for Israel to massacre them? If that’s not what you’re saying, you may need to make that more clear because it sounds that way to me.

In 20 years time when all of this ill feeling and trauma hasn’t gone away (because the trauma now is so huge that it won’t) Israel will no doubt try to pin it all on the Palestinians, claiming that Israel did nothing wrong. It’s why I think it’s so important now to make sure there are so many records of this massacre - despite EVERY attempt by Israel to ban and murder journalists in Gaza - that a future generation will not be fooled for a moment.

@Trulywonderful despite what you think of what other Arab countries think of ordinary Palestinians, I still think that using the word 'Nuisance' is dehumanising and maybe you could have worded it better.

It's a unfortunate narrative used against groups of people that have had genocide committed against them in the past, as history tells us.

Well that was a big jump away from what I was talking about wasn't it

How about I return that with something equally as not what you said or a ridiculous leap.

How about:

So you think it is OK to record events to be used to promote genocide of Jewish people in the future. To justify the genocide of 9 million Jewish and Arab citizens in Israel. Is that what you want? Is it? Is it?

How did I do was that a decent leap? I am not used to doing that so may have to practice a bit but seems okish for a first try 😂

Just to clarify I'm not saying that was your intention but to explain why I think it's incorrect to use that word

@Trulywonderful
You didn’t answer my question.

I think we both know you are clutching at straws now.

Seriously go try this tactic with someone else. Trying to twist my words or make them sound like something more than they are on mumsnet isn't going to fly well for you. People know me and my ethics plus my heart. You make yourself look bad and I don't think you are that bad just a little bias at times

What question and did it have anything to do with my post?

Also @EasterIssland
thank you for the thread
It is scary to see how actions of the IDF is increasing tensions locally - although accept prior tensions. For a start, it has put back normalisation of relationship with Saudi Arabia and Israel. The SA population dont want this by an overwhelming majority, and will be interesting to see how this pans out.
Also- the bombardment of Gaza is having repercussions on USA politics - given unpopularity of way Biden has managed Netanyahu amongst Democratic voters.

The USA does look weaker - and interesting that some E.U. countries did not want to join US led force in the Red Sea. I think other countries are manoeuvring into the hegemony gap being created- eg Putin visiting SA and China still buying Iranian oil.

The war has also damaged standing of Israeli government amongst world- who bar US has voted for a ceasefire in the UN.

I get why you believe that but don't agree with you. However I think the word is the most accurate for how the middle eastern leaders react and treat Palestinians. What you should be complaining about is that they think like this about a group of people that need their help and often have little control of the circumstances. However you have chosen to attack the use of the word rather than the behaviour and attitude it describes

@Trulywonderful well we will have to agree to disagree on this one then
As I said I don't believe it was you're intention but I don't agree with the word nuisance and I do find it dehumanising to use to generalise on the whole that Arab leaders think that of the Palestinians.
It wasn't to say that you as an individual person was using it for that reason

@Trulywonderful I have my fair share of complaints for many of the Arab leaders and I don't hide it
Assad should be in the Hague for all of his war crimes, and certainly not in a position to vote on the well being of the Palestinians. A bigger hypocrite I am yet to see

Can you be more specific about the 500k Arabs that “arrived”? What proportion was voluntary migration, what proportion was due to absentee landlords selling to Zionists and what number was due to involuntary migration?

what proportion was due to absentee landlords selling to Zionists

Sorry but literally no idea what the question is here or what the relevance if I try to guess what your question is

As for the rest:

Population of pre-Mandate Palestine was 800k about 80k of whom were Jewish, the rest a mix of Turks, Bedouins, Muslim & Christian Arabs, & European ex-pats.

Over 500k of that initial 800k were Arabs who arrived between 1932 & 1944 attracted by the Yishuv's burgeoning finances.

The Arabs that arrived from surrounding countries came because the land was getting developed and both work or business opportunities were happening. So economic migration.

Which is was documented and reported about at the time.

Yes

Thanks for clarifying- not before I’ve spent a fascinating evening going down a rabbit hole while dc watched very boring a Chinese movie.
And yes , it was a stupid question - sorry about that.
The extent of migration from other countries seems controversial among demographers but apart from the discredited Joan Peters, they seem to agree that most of the increase in Arab population was natural increase due to socioeconomic factors.

www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-egypts-proposal-to-give-up-power-in-gaza-in-return-for-ceasefire-report/

I'm not surprised. Terrorist groups don't want to give up power. They'd rather their people died then they give up power. Sad.

It just pours scorn on what exactly they committed the massacre and took hostages for. What do they want exactly?

Israel have made it clear they need to go. Most Arab counties will work to install and support a government and the civilians will get a ceasefire.

I know they don't want to give up their corrupt money source but then what is it all about? Not the people of Gaza and peace that's for sure.