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Conflict in the Middle East

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Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed

477 replies

mids2019 · 04/12/2023 21:05

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

It looks like the UN may have been reluctant to investigate or highlight the sickening sexual violence committed on October 7th. It also appears some of the hostages may have been abused.

Was this because the horrendous violence doesn't fit in with that purely Palestinians are victims of this ongoing conflict? Are investigations into these crimes because women are viewed as second class citizens or the revelations 'muddy the waters' where some just want to see one side as the victim.

Israeli soldiers hug as they look at pictures of the Nova music festival victims at the site of the festival near Kibbutz Reim

Hamas planned sexual violence as weapon of war - Israeli campaigner

An Israeli campaigner says militants planned acts of sexual violence committed in October's attack.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
TheaBrandt · 05/12/2023 16:30

Agree Ruminate.

As a woman, feminist and mother of teen dds reading about what was done to women on 7th oct cuts deep. Thinking that doesn’t mean I endorse the bombing of Palestinian civilians though. I do find the Lefts minimisation of the attacks and pro Hamas stance very very troubling.

TheaBrandt · 05/12/2023 16:33

I look at my dds best friend - beautiful thoughtful kind 15 year old Jewish girl and feel heartsick as to what those monsters would have done to her if they could.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 05/12/2023 16:37

To so many Palestine has been seen as a ' just cause' and these sickening events shatter their world view so they would rather ignore the barbarity rather than fundamentally re evaluate their value set?

I don’t think you need to re-evaluate your value set if you’ve been supporting the Palestinians right to statehood and to regain the occupied territories (though god knows how that would be achieved now)
Maybe if you’ve been thinking of Hamas as “freedom fighters” but I’ve always considered them terrorists myself.

beAsensible1 · 05/12/2023 16:40

Sussurations · 04/12/2023 23:04

Some people are denying it - I have seen awful
posts here on Mumsnet saying there is no ‘proof’ that rapes happened.

Owen Jones, who now seems to be positively deranged as well as morally and intellectually bankrupt, has been arguing that there isn’t definitive proof of rapes, and generally downplaying the horror of 7 Oct, certainly implying if not actually stating that it’s some kind of Jewish false flag conspiracy.

owen Jones did not deny that rape
happened he said he hadn’t seen any proof and specifically in the video he was shown there wasn’t any rape.

it is wildly irresponsible for any journalist to write about war and war crimes without evidence.

this is how we ended up with 40 beheaded babies and Palestinians using dolls to stage fake dead children.

regular joe blogs can say whatever, newspapers and news programmes need to and should verify claims. It does all of us a disservice if they do not.

obviously this is a highly emotional issue but spreading lies about people because they don’t agree with your views is wrong.

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 05/12/2023 16:44

owen Jones did not deny that rape
happened he said he hadn’t seen any proof and specifically in the video he was shown there wasn’t any rape.

Fair point.

Saying you haven’t seen proof and denying outright are two different things, particularly if you are a reporter. As I said before we probably will have to wait on investigations into the attacks before the truth of exactly what happened is made known to the public.

Lilacdressinggown · 05/12/2023 16:46

It’s awful OP. As is the response from Israel. Both as wicked each other.

SomeCatFromJapan · 05/12/2023 16:52

It’s awful OP. As is the response from Israel. Both as wicked each other.

I don't actuall y think so. I think willfully raping girls till their pelvises break, and slicing their breasts off, is the most wicked, in any context.

backtowinter · 05/12/2023 16:55

Lilacdressinggown · 05/12/2023 16:46

It’s awful OP. As is the response from Israel. Both as wicked each other.

Do you really think they're both as bad?

Terrorists hunting down, raping, torturing, mutilating, kidnapping, murdering. Up close and personal. Celebrating their actions, glorying in it

You think that is the same level of "wicked" as what Israel is doing?

Wow. That's taking whataboutism to the next level

TheaBrandt · 05/12/2023 16:57

Did you actually read what they did Lilac?

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 05/12/2023 17:03

I don't actuall y think so. I think willfully raping girls till their pelvises break, and slicing their breasts off, is the most wicked, in any context

It’s certainly more malicious. Israel’s government still needs to be held accountable for its failures though.

mids2019 · 05/12/2023 17:05

@Ruminate2much hi

I think everyone does hate civilian death in Gaza but it is the fact that the ongoing conflict (and remember Hamas are engaging the IDF) is being used as an excuse for these important issues not to be highlighted

It has taken the UN a long time to acknowledge the depravity and scale of the sexual violence and to many the reason for this was to not upset an agenda within the UN.

The overall impression is that the gross sexual violence has been horrendously diminished and people are rightly concerned.

OP posts:
TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 05/12/2023 17:07

beAsensible1 · 05/12/2023 16:40

owen Jones did not deny that rape
happened he said he hadn’t seen any proof and specifically in the video he was shown there wasn’t any rape.

it is wildly irresponsible for any journalist to write about war and war crimes without evidence.

this is how we ended up with 40 beheaded babies and Palestinians using dolls to stage fake dead children.

regular joe blogs can say whatever, newspapers and news programmes need to and should verify claims. It does all of us a disservice if they do not.

obviously this is a highly emotional issue but spreading lies about people because they don’t agree with your views is wrong.

Well I guess women describing what was done to them doesn’t count as proof if your starting point is that women are liars.
Or is that only Jewish women?

Lovepeaceunderstanding · 05/12/2023 17:09

EllaDisenchanted · 05/12/2023 06:17

I’m a bit speechless about this narrative.
there are reports that children were drugged and burned and marked, forced to watch the October 7th atrocities at gunpoint, three year old twins (cunio) were separated and one taken away from her family (for what purpose other than further psychological torture for the family), Mia schems arm was operated on by a vet, maya regev (sickeningly touted as liking her captors when she came out) was rushed immediately into surgery in Israel due to the gunshot wound in her leg not being treated. Every family that has been returned is compromised, they have relatives (often a father) still in captivity. Reports of psychological torture, and physical beatings of the Israeli hostages, including the kids. Medications not provided to elderly hostages; aisha and belal, the Bedouins recently released are extremely worried about their father still in captivity, who is diabetic. Elma avraham came out on the brink of death. One child was kept in solitary confinement for 16 days. They all lost weight and some of the children are barely able to speak.

and even before all that, they were kidnapped after witnessing the bloody murder of their closest family and friends. Some came out and learned how many of their family had been murdered, or still remained in captivity. Little avigail idan, who turned 4 in captivity came out to no parents, both murdered and a sibling so traumatised he has still not spoken since October 7th. Emily hand thought she had been hostage for a year, and spoke only in whispers.

what a sick and twisted narrative to say they treated the hostages well. The same Hamas who broke every basic human boundary on October 7th suddenly found their humanity and treated the hostages well?

The reason you are not seeing and hearing their stories publicly is because the hostages need to recover psychologically and physically comes way before our need to know what happened to them.

@EllaDisenchanted , totally agree.

stomachameleon · 05/12/2023 17:15

@beAsensible1 it wasn't in isolation though was it? Owen Jones agenda with women. I hope enough people complain and vote with their feet, I hope his career is over.

stomachameleon · 05/12/2023 17:17

@Lilacdressinggown I completely disagree. Read @EllaDisenchanted post again.

We will not allow anyone to derail this thread.

braticus · 05/12/2023 17:22

It's not that people don't believe women. It's that they don't believe Israel. The Israeli government has been caught in so many lies it's difficult to keep count. These claims of horrific rapes are being used to justify a genocide so I don't think it's too much to ask for some empirical evidence before casting judgement.

pickledandpuzzled · 05/12/2023 17:24

But Braticus, it’s not Israel who are speaking. It’s Hamas- who released graphic videos, men, women and children, journalists.

IDF isn’t standing up throwing out random claims.

SomeCatFromJapan · 05/12/2023 17:29

@braticus do you think the Israeli government has colluded with survivors and rescue workers and got them to make up horrendous lies?

stormy4319trevor · 05/12/2023 17:30

Sussurations · 05/12/2023 07:43

@mids2019 I’m grateful to you for starting this thread. We have a responsibility to speak up for these women where we can.

Yes. Are you speaking up for the Palestinian women and children who allege sexual violence and torture in Israeli prisons too? Charity and human rights reports go back before Oct 7th. I think we should support all women and children and demand investigations, or do only some women and children count?

braticus · 05/12/2023 17:33

@SomeCatFromJapan I will reserve judgment until after the UN completes their investigation.

MercanDede · 05/12/2023 17:38

Unfortunately, the objectification of women is engrained in every culture on the planet. This includes ‘modern democracies’ and European cultures. Rape is a universal weapon of war. In war, we women are always being raped on all sides. I don’t think the reports of rape were being suppressed by the UN, I don’t agree there is some sort of antiSemitism at play either. It all seems to be the usual ah rape, well that’s war business as usual to me.

Every other war on the globe past or present, rape is part of it. All posturing by world leaders and the UN condemning weaponised rape has been lip service. All militaries that claim they are moral and would never are liars. They all do it. I’ve seen it over and over and over. Doesn’t matter what race or age you are or where in the world the war is, if you are female rape is as probable as death and can happen in either order. This extends to civil wars, to terror organisations eg the Boko Haram kidnap Nigerian school girls in their hundreds rape them until they are pregnant and then force them to be suicide bombers. In the jungles of Central America, the CIA funded contras would raid villages and take back a dozen or so girls and women and over a week or two rape and torture them to death. I could go on, the examples of men’s savagery are endless.

Why? Because all of us are still viewed as objects for men to possess or their enemies to steal/violate/destroy. The men on ‘our side’ will refer to us as “our women” as Nethanyu possessively commented during the press announcement on Friday when he said of Hamas’ ‘they took OUR women’ instantly objectifying all the female hostages just as Agamemnon did when he rallied the Greeks to destroy Troy because a Trojan had taken HIS woman millenium ago. The stories of Helen being so beautiful or it being about love are romantic whitewashing, it was about you don’t steal my woman. Or Chengis Khan when he said it is great for the Mongol horde to defeat their enemies and then “lie on the soft bellies of their wives and daughters.”

Men have not evolved beyond this prehistoric and ancient mentality at all. The past fifty years of feminism has not been enough to undo the misogyny so deeply engrained in them.

The men on the other side, say we are ‘their women’ as in the women possessed by the men of the other side. So women become objects upon which enemy soldiers vent their anger and indulge in their most base and depraved fantasies. To take us hostage is with the intent to possess, to take something from the men of the enemy and then to crow ‘I have taken your women.’ We don’t get the quick, clean merciful death.

During a war, soldiers will even rape the female soldiers serving alongside them. Have you ever read the accounts of females in the military of sexual assault and rape within the ranks? Every military has this ‘problem’ as they call it which is yet more minimisation.

Yes rape is minimised, it’s a shrugged off weapon of war that is viewed as less damaging than a hand grenade. The sexual violence done to women and girls doesn’t ever get the attention it should because men don’t really want to change and that is sex based oppression and patriarchy in war. Israeli women, Jewish or Arab, or foreign National women taken hostage by Hamas are being treated no different from women in any war ever, past or present.

I know this may be difficult for some younger posters to accept, especially if they’ve grown up in a country that has never experienced war on their soil in generations or worked with female refugees from war torn countries.

Humdingerydoo · 05/12/2023 17:41

stormy4319trevor · 05/12/2023 17:30

Yes. Are you speaking up for the Palestinian women and children who allege sexual violence and torture in Israeli prisons too? Charity and human rights reports go back before Oct 7th. I think we should support all women and children and demand investigations, or do only some women and children count?

Sounds like those claims are already being dealt with and investigated? The whole point of this post is that the crimes Hamas and their friends committed on 7th October have been ignored or suppressed. They're not being dealt with or investigated. They're being denied.

Feel free to start a new post about sexual violence and torture in Israeli prisons, although I think something similar already exists? So that can be discussed there.

Humdingerydoo · 05/12/2023 17:42

braticus · 05/12/2023 17:33

@SomeCatFromJapan I will reserve judgment until after the UN completes their investigation.

So yes, you do think it's all lies. So why on earth are you on this thread?!

stomachameleon · 05/12/2023 17:43

So in a nutshell
Men gonna men
Israel lied (even though it's on camera)
Whataboutery.

I am saving you the five minutes you won't get back.

Shameful behaviour.

pickledandpuzzled · 05/12/2023 17:43

@stormy4319trevor not on this thread, about the silence around the atrocities of October 7th.

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