Horrors of violence towards women on October the 7th suppressed

[mids2019]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67613153

It looks like the UN may have been reluctant to investigate or highlight the sickening sexual violence committed on October 7th. It also appears some of the hostages may have been abused.

Was this because the horrendous violence doesn't fit in with that purely Palestinians are victims of this ongoing conflict? Are investigations into these crimes because women are viewed as second class citizens or the revelations 'muddy the waters' where some just want to see one side as the victim.

In this report the UN confirms prove of multiple rapes of men and women. The confirmation of this as fact has come from so many different sources now.

@XRAYTHIS oh the UN said it happened?
It must have happened then I will rush to tell my Mates...
Or something to that affect.

It's also surprised me that the terminology seen on other threads, the emotive wailing, the dread, the inability to sleep, the crying all day and night... is not shared when discussing the gang raping and mutilating of women.

#metoounlessyourajew

I do question the caveat that the events have 'not been independently verified'. We can be certain that bombs have been released over Gaza and there is no independent verification needed there

But there is independent verification done on the bombs dropped on Gaza! Have you been missing the before/after satellite imagery showing the destruction? Have you missed the UNWRA, UNICEF, MSF and ICRC reporting on the dead and injured from those bombs? The reports of all the journalists on site as well?

I can tell you I have had PTSD flashbacks every day and night since Oct 7th because I knew what had happened to the women at the festival and in the kibbutzim included rape and being killed worse than any horror movie can legally show. Because it always does.

“the emotive wailing, the dread, the inability to sleep, the crying all day and night”
You are referring to the dread of a ceasefire ending thread while smearing us by alleging we are only experiencing dread for Palestinian women.

You do know that a permanent ceasefire would mean ALL hostages go free? That whatever sexual tortures they are enduring would end? To imply that the thread in which we dreaded a ceasefire ending means we don’t care about all innocent women is disgusting especially since most posters were very careful to be inclusive in their comments.

The fact you aren’t experiencing any of this such you feel a need to mock, well it’s not quite the brag you think it is.

@MercanDede I wasn't talking about one specific thread.

I literally picked things from different threads and will show to Mumsnet if you like.

You are naive to think Hamas will let those hostages go though. The soldiers. They have said as much. Kfir?

I have skin in the game. I have family there. So one would argue plenty of experience.

@MercanDede

the fact that something is so obviously true that an independent investigation couldn't conceivably come to an alternative conclusi on. So if the in the 1940s there was an independent commission into whether an atomic bomb had been dropped on Hiroshima and it can back with nothing to see people would dismiss it out of hand. I think the events of October 7th fall into that category. A IN investigation may reveal specifics and detail but certainly won't be questioning whether the events took place.

I'm totally horrified by both. It's all absolutely awful. All of it. I've been at pains in my posts to be even-handed, as I don't want to offend anyone, and because I feel so sorry for all the innocent victims on both sides. An unbelievably heartbreaking situation 😔

@MercanDede I think your point is that the sexual abuse in this case hasn’t been suppressed, it’s just being accepted as part and parcel of conflict as happens elsewhere.

The difference I think, which has upset everyone on this thread, is the massive support for one side in this conflict- and it’s not the side which experienced a sustained brutal attack.

Imagine being part of that group and looking around only to see governments, human rights organisations, protests and marches- all backing your attackers and saying nothing about the initial bestial attack that was inflicted.

No one was defending Boko Haram.
No one is defending Russia.

Thay is where the suppression has been, that’s being discussed on this thread.

@pickledandpuzzled I think that was a really good way of explaining it.

I have read some of the material that some posters have put up and it is horrific. There is no excuse for such actions. No justification for it.
Its sickening how depraved humans can be and its scary to know what world our children are growing up in.

Imagine being part of that group and looking around only to see governments, human rights organisations, protests and marches- all backing your attackers and saying nothing about the initial bestial attack that was inflicted

No one was defending Boko Haram.
No one is defending Russia.

Most people think of Hamas and the Palestinian's separately but if you view them
as the same thing then yes it must be very alarming.

The human rights organisations and marches were not backing Hamas. Governments are more likely to be vocally supportive of Israel as far as I can see.

I should add that I don't agree that all those on the marches were backing Hamas
I don't conflate support for Palestinians with support for Hamas

I do think that it shouldn't have taken this long for the UN to condemn it and ofcourse it makes sense why people would be upset by this.

Hmm. I think it’s really convenient to separate Hamas from the Palestinians.

The attackers were confident of support on the ground. When they paraded the body of that poor raped girl, the Palestinians around them didn’t shrink back in horror, they cheered and celebrated, spat on her corpse. The parents of the attacker who rang home to brag didn’t berate their child for his brutality, they congratulated him.
I know it’s not all Palestinians, but neither is it a small minority.

How do you separate Hamas from Palestinians, @Anotherdayanotherdiet ?

This is my problem. Dh very clear on the separation you wouldn’t punish the Irish population for the IRA etc which I agree with but they seem to have such widespread support.

If those marchers weren’t implicitly backing Hamas, why weren’t they marching for the hostages and victims too? I can’t imagine joining a march with a placard and not squeezing in a mention of the original victims.

At the risk of being a bit father ted, my sign would have been ‘don’t punish the innocent with the guilty’, or ‘two wrongs don’t make a right’. ‘show mercy’.

If those marchers weren’t implicitly backing Hamas, why weren’t they marching for the hostages and victims too? I can’t imagine joining a march with a placard and not squeezing in a mention of the original victims.

Presumably for the same reason people are not allowed to post certain things on certain threads here. People like to keep things separate.

I doubt some placards supporting Palestinians were squeezed into the march against antisemitism.

The people of Northern Ireland and to a much lesser extent ROI were punished for the IRA by having stringent restrictions on their freedom.
Which is what was the case until October 7th. If the IRA had committed an atrocity like this, I’m not sure we’d have just sat back and tutted about it.

Yes the horror of the attacks is next level. It’s really something when you find yourself thinking on balance you would rather you and your teenage dds die quickly in bomb than be gang raped and tortured to death. What a world 😢

It just doesn’t ring true for me, @Anotherdayanotherdiet

I’ve deleted a chunk to keep this thread on topic. As you say, a time and a place. The focus here is on why the October 7th attaches weren’t more widely condemned

Why did the rush to defend‘ordinary Palestinians’ caught up in Israel’s response result in statements right left and centre, but so few about the October 7th attacks.

How come the statements weren’t ’We stand with the people of Israel as they reel from the desperate attacks on October 7th. How can we ensure justice without destroying ordinary Palestinians. We call in Israel and the rest of the world to root out this corruption without unfair reprisals’.?

Off topic, @SunsetOnTheHorizon

not relevant to the world’s response to the abuse of October 7th

Any comment on why the horrific sexual violence towards women on October 7th hasn't been more widely condemned, @SunsetOnTheHorizon ?

Plenty of other threads available for you to shout!!!!!! on

You say violence isn't justified, but it sounds like you're trying to justify it.

What were they fighting back against on the 7th October? What did they women they raped do to them?

What were they fighting back against on the 7th October? What did they women they raped do to them?

Exactly, copiley695

But.

One wee word that says so much about the person using it

Are you victim blaming here?

@SunsetOnTheHorizon I could possibly buy that if Hamas fought back in a purely physical sense. But the sexual depravity of it all and the use of torture, mutilation etc is another level, and it just doesn't fit with what you are saying.
We tend to say it's ok to fight back and defend yourself. We don't say, if someone hurts you you just brutally rape their wives and daughters.

There is something much deeper at play - an ideology and extreme religious views. There are many other similar groups, globally, and they are all connected by a share ideology. And it is for that reason that Hamas would gladly inflict the same violence on you or me or our children or anyone in the Western world. They are at odds with what we value in the free world and fundamentally are a threat to the relative state of peace we have lived with for so long. Bare in mind, this ideology is growing and their are people with British citizenship who share it. We have had a taste of Islamic extremism on our own soil before, and I for one do not want it again. We had people celebrating the systematic rape and murder of Jews in this country before Isreal even responded.