Why Can't Gazans Leave?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

Believe me, a lot of us are amazed at others' comprehension as well, or lack of it.

nationallampoons - well, 1 million people isn't really that many if split across all the wealthy countries. But I was not considering their strong identity ties to Palestine and the fears that it would end up being forever. So, I guess there is nowhere for them to go, which is heartbreaking.

I am heartsick at all the death and destruction and pain, on both sides, I’m still traumatised from October 7th, and I see no good outcomes right now, for any of us. I don’t have solutions or answers, and I’m completely emotionally exhausted. Recognizing the evil of Hamas, and mourning the devastation of Gaza and tragic loss of Palestinian lives , and grieving for my own Jewish people are not mutually incompatible, just painful.

But comments like yours are so far beyond the pale. Do you know the reality of the concentration camps? Have you really read survivors accounts? Because I have. Whether Israel are right or wrong to have very tight border controls with Gaza (which is independently run, not by Israel), and whether you believe it was a gorgeous thriving place or a poverty stricken disaster pre war (I don’t know what to believe, I’ve seen so many conflicting accounts) none of it, absolutely none of it, is anything like what Jewish people were forced to endure in the concentration camps. You are literally weaponising my people’s trauma against us.

and the Warsaw ghetto uprising? It was pretty much a suicide mission. They knew they were not getting out alive , and decided to go down fighting. To compare the Warsaw ghetto uprising , the desperate actions of a condemned people, to go down fighting and take a few nazis with them- to a group of terrorists who deliberately invaded, raped women and children, alive and dead , took hostages including babies and the elderly. who committed the most appalling barbarities, and took the greatest of pleasure in doing so? How dare you.

agree or disagree with Israel’s actions, but don’t you dare use my people’s agony as a stick to beat us with. You do the Palestinian people no favour when you do so. Language like this is the opposite of what will bring peace.

"Compared to Gaza, there have been days where 1,000 were massacred in 24hrs."

And compared to Israel, where 1,300 were massacred in 6 hours.

((Hugs))

Yes, I agree EllaDisenchanted - it is not okay to try and draw comparisons/false equivalence, argue about which ethnic and religious groups have worse trauma or try to hurt Jewish or Israeli people with minimising of historical events.

Its not a sick competition.

EllaDisenchanted so true. I wonder sometimes if the latest generation don't fully comprehend this and find it so easy to jump on the latest bandwagon without ever understanding the nuances of the history.

@BeggyMitchell Well said. From what I heard or have seen about the Warsaw Uprising, if there are any comparisons to be made in my mind, it is that the way the Nazis behaved then was the same way that Hamas behaved on October 7th.

I've been wondering this too. Admitting the Palestinians would like to leave rather than be bombed, why are they not allowed to leave? I think the answer is that Israel doesn't care for them to allow them to leave through its borders and it doesn't want Egypt to do so either. Egypt would rather not have the problem anyway and why would they try extra hard at the expense of diplomacy with neighbouring Isreal.
So I think the bottom line is that Israel doesn't care how many Palestinians die.

@miniaturepixieonacid the solution to that is always talking. Not murdering 1000s of children. Hamas would lose a lot of support in the wider Middle East area if there wasn't a degree of horror at Israel’s historic and persistent poor treatment of civilians and infringement on their rights to land. Talk. Show respect to Palestinian land. Fund charities to uplift the Palestinian population. Programmes to move families out of refugee camps. Increase their own security. Be the bigger man than Hamas. Bomb and kill all Gazans? There’ll be a terrorist group growing in the West Bank. Bomb and kill all of them? Iran will fund another one. And all while this is happening Israel is also losing Western support while they act like a 17th century colonialist. Mass murder is never the answer.

I don’t understand when people say it’s difficult or there’s no solution. The solution is that Israel recognises that Palestinians have human rights and full autonomy over the pitiful land and sea they have access to. And if Israel can’t recognise that, and continue to kill, orphan and maim the Palestinians, then the whole world should be imposing sanctions

I think there was a time when this was possible (back during the 90s peace talks for example) but now that terrorism has taken hold it’s more difficult. Israel can’t exactly give full autonomy to a region that’s governed by a bunch of people who’ve just killed over a thousand of their citizens.
That said Israel’s actions over the years have definitely contributed to creating the current situation. The Israeli government allowed Hamas to remain in power in Gaza for example because they thought it was in their interests as it weakened the power of the Palestinian Authority.

Various parties in Israeli politics have openly said they want to drive them into Egypt. This means they are no longer 'responsible' for the Palestinians (they had been supplying water and electricity for example as Gaza doesn't have its own means to provide enough for its population).

Egypt doesn't want them because they can't afford to feed them, police them and provide the necessary infrastructure in camps on the border. They don't want to try to absorb hundreds of thousands into the country because the country already is unstable enough politically and this would do similar (see refugees in Europe and backlashes against Ukrainians). There is a worry that Hamas might start to have political influence WITHIN Egypt. There is already the example of Hezbollah in Lebanon, where parts of the country are effectively not controlled by the government.

I don't get why we fail to understand that Egypt and other Arab nations don't want a bunch of Palestinian refugees when there's a huge issue in Europe over the same thing. There's this weird idea that they'd just be happy to take all these people cos religion. Its bonkers.

There is a border crossing into Egypt.
Yes one would have thought that the surrounding Arab countries would be falling over themselves to offer sanctuary..

Look at Europes reaction to Ukrainian's . I am a host and very pleased to be able to offer sanctuary to someone facing bombs. Ukraine is nowhere near the UK. My guest has friends living in Hungary, Germany , Poland and Portugal to name but a few. All of whom have opened their doors to them in a time of need.

Why are Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Dubai, etc not doing the same. ? I don't buy the 'if I leave then we lose our homeland' argument.. that whilst probably true - who needs a homeland when they are dead ? Or their children are dead ?

I am pretty sure I know the answer... because whilst the rest of the Arab world want to wring their hands and castigate the Israelis (and I do not support what Israel is doing) ... they want Hammas in THEIR countries even less.

There's a whole pile of hypocrisy about.

Egypt/Jordan still not letting them in (they don’t like Palestinians), Israel no longer letting them in because of October 7, Hamas won’t let them leave and have even resorted to shooting evacuees

The problem is that the Israeli hard liners took control over the government and didn't want to do this. The Israeli Newspaper Haaretz has had a couple of opinion pieces talking about how Hamas and Netanyahu were allies and bedfellows because neither wanted a two state solution and the way they have worked together effectively killed off all Western attemption to talk.

Thats the problem - there were two more hardline groups - one on each side who had no desire to do this before and certainly don't know.

Netanyahu is a populist who played the demographics and where the votes are. Its not with the more liberal side of Israel which is much more open to the idea of a peaceplan. Meanwhile religious groups are keen for more land (because birth rates). And there is something of a braindrain going on in the midst of this, because the educated tend to be more liberal which doesn't help (cos blame game politics over economics).

The attack on 7th October only served to widen this divide between peacemakers and hawks.

'falling over to welcome'

Are you on glue?

Are you not seeing the massive backlash starting to happen in the EU over Ukrainians (which was always sadly inevitable I fear)?

Plus taking on refugees is regarded as almost allowing Israel to achieve a goal.

www.instagram.com/reel/C0ZqB5prI_X/?igshid=NTYzOWQzNmJjMA==

@2x2x2 where is all the support you talk of in the Middle East for Hamas? I don't think that's true. They might have hoped it would be (Iran) but even they have relatively speaking kept their mouths shut. Egypt? They just made it clear they wouldn't accept people from Gaza. Why? Hamas? And the fact they do have support among the general populace. Lebanon and Jordan have already been burnt by trying to help.

Hamas hated the fact Israel was moving to a cordial relationship with the emirates.
'Fund charities to uplift the population' the Palestinians get Huge sums in aid. The problem is it's misappropriated by guess who.... Hamas. Top three leaders are worth 11 billion. The first thing I would do is get rid of unwra.. the biggest money washing 'charity'.

It's a myth when you say 'refugees camps' and makes me think you know little about the area. Camps are flats and there is huge wealth in Gaza. Palestinian federation horse racing federation? Not since 1948 has any of that billions of pounds in aid been used to build houses? Complete infrastructure so they have no need to rely on Israel. It's the last thing I would want? More important to buy rockets though and pay off terrorists.

Remember there are 14 other 'Hamas' too. They can all stop this by stopping the terror and releasing the hostages. It is them (whilst being protecting and hiding like cowards in other countries) that are putting their people though this.

And with regard to the west. I think that America is saying what it needs to say but know what needs to happen.

Because what happens if Israel lets this go? What happens then to Hamas and their pledge to do it again. Why would they not be taken seriously? They raped their way through kibbutz's renowned for being peace loving. People who gave up their lives to help Gazan's.

Israel cannot be paralysed in inaction because Hamas uses its own people as human shields. (Remember rockets are still coming into Israel and Hamas are fighting the IDF)

@stomachameleon Agree with all of this

Also: the fact Palestinians are kept in perpetual refugee status is mainly the fault of UNWRA who have no incentive to do anything else. There have been so many UNWRA scandals including teaching Palestinian kids overtly antisemitic material.

I think a lot of people don’t realise that the crowd surrounding the vehicle carrying the body of Shani Louk and spitting at her/violating her are not Hamas, those are Palestinian civilians. The crowds surrounding the hostage transfers, intimidating them, jeering at them, climbing on the vehicles, etc - all civilians. The hostages report being kept prisoner by supposed civilians, including a Palestinian family with children and even an UNWRA teacher. Terrorist infrastructure has been deliberately hidden under civilian buildings and civilians have provided cover to the Western media for the terrorists. The civilians themselves may have varying degrees of culpability (the staff of Al-Shifa hospital for example may have been threatened into lying, they could be petrified of Hamas, we just don’t know) but the effect is that the distinction between civilians and combatants is very wooly. This situation is not an accident, Hamas has designed this.

Israel is working in very difficult circumstances and held to higher standards than any other army. We just have to hope that it’s over quickly. Genuine civilians’ best chance is helping the IDF get rid of Hamas. But there is an environment of terror.

BTW it's 2 million in gaza. 1.2 million had to leave the North with nowhere to go.

I don't understand this getting rid of Hamas ideal. The fact that the Israeli hostages who were freed survived is proof that Hamas knows where to hide to escape the bombs and the ground invasion. The idea that Israel can eradicate the last one of the Hamas terrorists is for the birds. Even if they did - and I don't believe they will - like James O'brien said today, you can't kill an ideaology. All these poor innocent Palestinians who've been murderded have brothers, cousins, friends, who will grow to hate the Israelis even more and the cycle of violence will not end.
I didn't beleive for a second that the Israeli government is naive enough to truly believe they can eradicate Hamas. They're only saying that because they need to justify the war in the eyes of its western allies. What they want is to kick all the Palestinians out or to kill them and they see this as their chance to do it. They don't care how many innocent people die, they're just going for it now.

So what should be done about Hamas?

@NotABeliever or that Hamas knew keeping them alive as they do themselves mean they are a fantastic bargaining tool.

Oh except the ones they don't. Like kfir

@cauliflowerwaterfall

a lot of people don’t realise that the crowd surrounding the vehicle carrying the body of Shani Louk and spitting at her/violating her are not Hamas, those are Palestinian civilians.

the distinction between civilians and combatants is very wooly. This situation is not an accident, Hamas has designed this.

You can't have it both ways. But it IS the latter - speak out in Gaza and you'll be chucked off a high building/tortured/your family tortured/killed.

I think Israel should take the whole 2m population of Gaza in while the bomb the territory to eradicate Hamas.

Or do what will have to be done ultimately and find a political solution. Hamas wants money and power just like any other corrupt despotic group. Surely tat could create some leverage?