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Conflict in the Middle East
Original poster

Why Can't Gazans Leave?

960 replies

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:25

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

OP posts:
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Depdawg · 04/12/2023 14:59

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2023 14:56

Ethnic cleansing doesn't just mean killing. It means displacing a population from a certain piece of land.

Israel literally asked Gazans to move from their homes in north Gaza or they risked being bombed/regarded as hostile. That's removal via threats/intimidation/violence.

That constitutes ethnic cleansing.

They didn't need to actually flatten it to meet criteria for ethic cleansing.

I can go look up the definition used in Bosnia if anyone still wants to split hairs on this. (I quoted it somewhere a few weeks back).

So yeah I would say I probably have more of an idea than most about what description matches ethnic cleansing cos I've actually bothered to look it up a description from a source that's respected and reputable (in the absence of there being an international agreement on the definition).

I've already cleared this up and clarified my position.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:00

My reply was to @SOBplus

Echobelly · 04/12/2023 15:02

Surrounding countries won't have them because it suits them to use the Palestinians as pawns to make things harder for Israel. Also, Palestinians may fear, quite justifiably, that they will never be allowed back and Israel claims yet more of Palestine.

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2023 15:02

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 14:59

I've already cleared this up and clarified my position.

Show quote history

Well repeating the point isn't a bad thing is it?

Given the amount of bullshit and emotionally charged nonsense on what ethnic cleansing is, it doesn't harm anyone to reinforce good definitions.

ElevenSeven · 04/12/2023 15:04

None of the neighbouring countries want Gazan refugees. They are not supportive of Hamas either and don’t want any of the risk of uprisings in their own states. Many of the other Middle Eastern/Arab states are quietly supportive of Israel for this reason.

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:04

RedToothBrush · 04/12/2023 15:02

Well repeating the point isn't a bad thing is it?

Given the amount of bullshit and emotionally charged nonsense on what ethnic cleansing is, it doesn't harm anyone to reinforce good definitions.

Show quote history

I agree, although EC in this case can be open to somewhat interpretation. The community were also moved for their own protection.
The way some talk about it is reliving the holocaust.

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:07

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:00

My reply was to @SOBplus

What did @SOBplus say that was untrue?

OuiOuiKitty · 04/12/2023 15:07

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:04

I agree, although EC in this case can be open to somewhat interpretation. The community were also moved for their own protection.
The way some talk about it is reliving the holocaust.

Show quote history

I think people think it is more like reliving the Nakba of 1948. Palestinians certainly said as much as they were forced from their homes.

ssd · 04/12/2023 15:09

Toothyfruity · 04/12/2023 14:31

I'm not sure what you're asking. I object to the statement that "Gazans" want to kill Israelis. Because Gazans aren't terrorists. There are terrorist organisations operating in Gaza, obviously, but saying that Gazans want to kill the Israelis is an outrageous sweeping statement.

I'm sick of the narrative that Gazans and Palestinians are all terrorists so it's OK to kill them. What's happening is ethnic cleansing and genocide, and a large part of why that is is the topic of this thread - the population is trapped and is being bombed. Thousands of children and ordinary men and woman are being killed as we speak. Hundreds of thousands have lost their homes. Not to mention being denied medical care, aid, food, electricity and water which is killing more who are not included in the death toll. I can't imagine trying to keep small babies alive in the last seven weeks without these basics. More war crimes by an occupying force.

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👏👏👏

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:09

They don't move because their neighbours don't want them and the longer this goes on, the more demonised Israel becomes which suits other countries.

A win

Itsaharddlife · 04/12/2023 15:13

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:04

I agree, although EC in this case can be open to somewhat interpretation. The community were also moved for their own protection.
The way some talk about it is reliving the holocaust.

Show quote history

Yeh just like they're bombing them for their own good. To save them from Hamas who is the occupier (I think that's what another posters mentioned anyways)

They told them to move from the north and now they're telling them to move from the south. Where are they supposed to go? You can stick to the view that this is supposedly necessary to eradicate hamas, but don't bullshit about it being for their protection. Its quite clear neither side is thinking about the poor people of Gaza.

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:17

Itsaharddlife · 04/12/2023 15:13

Yeh just like they're bombing them for their own good. To save them from Hamas who is the occupier (I think that's what another posters mentioned anyways)

They told them to move from the north and now they're telling them to move from the south. Where are they supposed to go? You can stick to the view that this is supposedly necessary to eradicate hamas, but don't bullshit about it being for their protection. Its quite clear neither side is thinking about the poor people of Gaza.

Show quote history

Well as I now doubt the intentions of this thread, I'm not going to provide further fuel.
I will say one last thing: if Israel wanted civilians to perish, they could have made far easier and quicker work of it. Something isn't bullshit just because you
Don't believe it.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:18

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backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

That's some reaching going on

What's wrong with what she said?

Surely you agree that Hamas are evil and need to be taken out?

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:24

@Depdawg Israel does want to get rid of Palestinians and they are quite upfront about that. But they needed the justification or their western backers might have been put in an awkward position. Are you so ideological that you can justify THOUSANDS of children bombed to death? Have you lost your own humanity? The so called ideals of Israel are long gone, and never were. What we are seeing now is the ugly reality of brutal colonialism and an attempted genocide

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:24

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:24

@Depdawg Israel does want to get rid of Palestinians and they are quite upfront about that. But they needed the justification or their western backers might have been put in an awkward position. Are you so ideological that you can justify THOUSANDS of children bombed to death? Have you lost your own humanity? The so called ideals of Israel are long gone, and never were. What we are seeing now is the ugly reality of brutal colonialism and an attempted genocide

I never said I justified it.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:27

I ask you again @backtowinter were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising evil? Look at the statistics of Palestinians killed over the years, the amount of food allowed into Gaza. People were rarely allowed out for cancer treatment. That is an open air prison aka a concentration camp

Anotherdayanotherdiet · 04/12/2023 15:28

Because the borders are closed. This is to prevent Hamas leaving and getting into Israel or Egypt but obviously this means all the Palestinians are locked into a war zone.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:28

@Depdawg your comments seem to be justifying it to me

Depdawg · 04/12/2023 15:29

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:28

@Depdawg your comments seem to be justifying it to me

No, I'm more open to reading history, to understand context.
Not being guided by emotion.

Rouleur · 04/12/2023 15:29

miniaturepixieonacid · 04/12/2023 13:31

I know there's a border. I just thought other countries would let them across it into their countries in a war situation. Not necessarily to bear the full burden but then for the international community to help out. Maybe we wouldn't but we have taken refugees from other conflicts.

But if Hamas won't let them leave then that explains it. Thanks.

Just so hard to watch.

Which "other countries"? Do you mean Israel and Egypt? Israel are actively at war with Palestine so obviously won't let refugees cross the border, and Egypt won't either because they don't want to end up like Jordan or Lebanon, having to house millions of displaced Palestinians for decades.

It's a very different situation to Ukraine where refugees could easily flee to welcoming and supportive countries by simply hopping on a train.

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:32

Anyone justifying the killing of THOUSANDS of people who are CAPTIVE need to go and learn some history. This is how the holocaust happened. Dehumanising them “human animals” “terrorists” “mowing the lawn”. Criminalising any resistance and them blaming the killing on the victims

backtowinter · 04/12/2023 15:33

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:32

Anyone justifying the killing of THOUSANDS of people who are CAPTIVE need to go and learn some history. This is how the holocaust happened. Dehumanising them “human animals” “terrorists” “mowing the lawn”. Criminalising any resistance and them blaming the killing on the victims

Do you not think Hamas are terrorists

Am I misunderstanding what you mean by resistance?

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:34

I will ask you again for the third time. Were the people involved in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising terrorists. Please Google it before responding

Imtootired · 04/12/2023 15:34

Reply to @backtowinter above