Why Can't Gazans Leave?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

"Gazans want to kill the Israelis"? Well that's an outrageous statement.

It's easier for the likes of Poland to help Ukrainians because Ukrainians can go back when the war is over, or if things settle down in the area they come from. Where I live Ukrainian asylum seekers go home for Christmas for God's sake and come back again. Palestinians can't go back to Palestine if they leave.

Also, Ukrainians could leave Ukraine. Palestinians can't leave Palestine. I feel like that's an important point here.

@Notsuretoputit because the population is nearer to 2 million not under a million as you've claimed.

What Israel is doing matches the criteria used to define ethnic cleansing in Bosnia. So I'm going with that in the absence of an internationally approved and recognised definition.

I don't believe it matches the criteria for genocide though.

I try to be neutral and unemotional on this point.

It's harder to argue that what Israel is doing DOESN'T meet the description of ethnic cleansing tbh.

"Gazans want to kill the Israelis? Well that's an outrageous statement.

Where to even start: why do you think 7/10 was even engineered?!
You seem to have no problem with talking (illogically) about Israel's ethnic cleansing.

RedToothBrush The Egypt one is what I would have hoped. Obviously not into Israel. I know it's been mostly shut but that's what seems so inhumane to me. I know Egypt couldn't do everything but if the world leaders as a whole could just get people (who wanted to go) over the border where they aren't in imminent danger of being blown up and then work out how to help them so many lives could be saved.

I think it's the tiny size and being nearly surrounded by Israel that I'm not appreciating though. I thought there was a Lebanon border too but now see that's just Israel. My map Geography is woeful, I admit. I can name you every single country in the world and their capitals but I couldn't place more than a handful on a map. No spatial awareness or memory for shapes at all.

In July 2018, Israel further restricted the Gaza fishing space to 3 nautical miles (5.6 km).

Palestinians cannot leave by sea and aid cannot arrive by sea, Israel won't allow it.

Of course this is Israel's plan, force the Palestinians to break through the border into Egypt and once they are there, never ever let them back into Gaza.

Another problem for Egypt is that Hamas (or whoever replaces them) could then launch rockets from the new Palestinian "homeland" and Israel would retaliate, as they do into Lebanon and Syria.

Fair enough one might say, its also worth remembering how Israel was formed, they had their very own "Hamas"

I'm not sure what you're asking. I object to the statement that "Gazans" want to kill Israelis. Because Gazans aren't terrorists. There are terrorist organisations operating in Gaza, obviously, but saying that Gazans want to kill the Israelis is an outrageous sweeping statement.

I'm sick of the narrative that Gazans and Palestinians are all terrorists so it's OK to kill them. What's happening is ethnic cleansing and genocide, and a large part of why that is is the topic of this thread - the population is trapped and is being bombed. Thousands of children and ordinary men and woman are being killed as we speak. Hundreds of thousands have lost their homes. Not to mention being denied medical care, aid, food, electricity and water which is killing more who are not included in the death toll. I can't imagine trying to keep small babies alive in the last seven weeks without these basics. More war crimes by an occupying force.

I know Egypt couldn't do everything but if the world leaders as a whole could just get people (who wanted to go) over the border where they aren't in imminent danger of being blown up and then work out how to help them so many lives could be saved.
That doesn't work though, its what we have now - (with liberties taken) a group (Palestinians) feeling displaced in a refugee center (Gaza) and trying to demand their grievances be addressed by the world and whose anger results in a terrorist group taking charge to force the issue and then a response to the terror. We can move it around like musical chairs but its not a solution and I'm not sure there is one. Taking in displaced peoples has been a shit show for hundreds of years - hence the creation of 'refuge in place' under Clinton and other world leaders abandoned by Obama and other world leaders resulting in the messes around the world by those who don't want to assimilate to the culture where they are now living as refugees.

@Toothyfruity I couldn't be bothered to read all of that. Sorry, its what has been said by you a 100 times.
If Israel wanted Gazans ethnically cleansed, Gaza would be long flattened.

Israel would like Egypt to accept all the refugees.

Genuinely I don't think Egypt could take them without the risk of domestic civil unrest, nor does it solve the Hamas conflict with Israel. It just means Egypt may get sucked into another direct conflict with Israel in the future.

I don't think you can say opening the border will save lives due to the political instability along that border. That's the problem.

You cant rule out that opening the border might trigger Egyptian civil war or an Egyptian war with Israel in the medium to long term.

Gaza is flattened.

Egypt absolutely does NOT want Gazans inside their borders for at least three reasons.

1. They don't want Gazans using their territory to attack Israel from.

2. Egypt don't want more refugees.

3. Egyptian President Abdel Fattah el-Sissi said, “The threat there is significant because it means the liquidation of this (Palestinian) cause. It’s important for its people to stay steadfast and exist on its land.”

Egypt actively WANTS Gazans to stay in Gaza.

This is from Reuters:

"Security in the area around Rafah is also of concern to Egypt because Sinai has been the site of an Islamist insurgency that flared a decade ago. Hamas, which has run the Gaza Strip since 2007, shares the Islamist ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, a movement outlawed in Egypt."

www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/bombardments-hit-area-gaza-sinai-border-crossing-gaza-officials-2023-10-10/

Egypt DOESN'T want or need Hamas sneaking in and linking up with Muslim Brotherhood.

From a National Security perspective, it's far better for Egypt to keep their border shut to keep Hamas away from Muslim Brotherhood.

It makes sense. Like Egypt, Israel certainly doesn't want Gazans in Israeli territory for National Security reasons.

Additionally, Hamas don't want Gazans to leave - NATO StratCom COE report "Hamas' Use Of Human Shields In Gaza 2008-2014".

I can't imagine trying to keep small babies alive in the last seven weeks without these basics. More war crimes by an occupying force.

THANK YOU! I absolutely agree with you, Hamas have committed many many war crimes in their occupation of Gaza!

Ethnic cleansing is the expulsion of a group from a certain area. Which js ehat israel are currently doing.
I think you maybe meant if Israel wanted to commit genocide then gaza would be flattened?

Well I'm glad you agree these are war crimes. Israel is the one committing these crimes by denying them movement, water, food, electricity, their homes, access to healthcare.

Hello, No you were correct originally. Hamas are the self announced occupiers of Gaza, they are in control in Gaza and they have stolen BILLIONS in aid and committed many many war crimes against the people of Gaza.

.

Ok. No point engaging further with you obviously.

@Depdawg that last post of yours is one of the most chilling posts I think I've ever read about this conflict here. Gaza is being ethnically cleansed. What else can you call shoving over 2 million down into the Rafah district whilst bombing civilian infrastructure including hospitals and denying them food, water, electricity and other basic amenities a person needs to live. Anyone who doesn't consider this ethnic cleansing either doesn't understand the term or is willfully blind to what's happening.

I'm sick of talking to those who are apologists for this behaviour so I'm not going to engage with those posters any more.

Thanks for that respite. 👍

Yes, that is what EC is but it's not Israel's raison d'etre to eradicate all Palestinians.

Ethnic cleansing doesn't just mean killing. It means displacing a population from a certain piece of land.

Israel literally asked Gazans to move from their homes in north Gaza or they risked being bombed/regarded as hostile. That's removal via threats/intimidation/violence.

That constitutes ethnic cleansing.

They didn't need to actually flatten it to meet criteria for ethic cleansing.

I can go look up the definition used in Bosnia if anyone still wants to split hairs on this. (I quoted it somewhere a few weeks back).

So yeah I would say I probably have more of an idea than most about what description matches ethnic cleansing cos I've actually bothered to look it up a description from a source that's respected and reputable (in the absence of there being an international agreement on the definition).

So this is a battle between good and evil so all the Palestinan children who died deserved it? And Israel is good for bombing refugees and hospitals? You are brainwashed or just a horrible person