Why Can't Gazans Leave?

[miniaturepixieonacid]

There is probably a very simple answer to this that I missed in early news reports.

It's so awful watching News Feeds that essentially seem to say that Gazans are having to move around in a cat and mouse game with the IDF to avoid bombs but have nowhere left to go.

I am very aware that war has casualties and other countries are at war. I am not necessarily saying that IDF should stop fighting.

But this war is different in that all civilians seem to be trapped. Normally war creates refugees. Ukrainians, Afghans, Syrians - they were able to get out. Not all, I know, but movement was an option and it kept civilian casualties down. Why can't Gazans leave Gaza?

No

Not even remotely what I said, nice twist attempt though.🙄

Well as I now doubt the intentions of this thread

If the question is legit

I don’t really understand statements like these. Are we not meant to discuss the very real problem of the Palestinians being trapped between Israel and Hamas? Do you really think people are talking about it to irritate you? You can’t think of any other reason?

What did you mean by a battle of good and evil then @SOBplus ? what about the Nakba? Who was good and evil back then?

1. There's a massive maximum security wall around the Gaza Strip. Israel controls most of the access and doesn't want the Palestinians to leave - yet.
2. The access point into Egypt is also puppeteered by Israel, which is one of the reasons it's been so hard for foreign nationals to get out, and aid to get in.
3. Egypt and the rest of the world (other than the US) basically want the Palestinians to stay in Gaza to prevent Israel from just moving in and declaring it Israeli territory. If the Palestinians all leave it's basically Israel's to take, and then we have a whole new world of pain, where we have half a nationality's citizens without any land to live on (and the West Bank isn't a viable option because Israel are also making it untenable for Palestinian's to live there).

Ethnic cleansing is a purposeful policy of "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons from another ethnic group"
Bassiouni, M. Cherif (28 December 1994). "Final report of the United Nations Commission of Experts established pursuant to security council resolution 780 (1992), Annex IV – The policy of ethnic cleansing". United Nations. Archived from the original on 4 May 2012. Retrieved 11 July 2012.

Saying "The community were also moved for their own protection." isn't an excuse or justification. They've still been intimidated from an area due to being a Gazan by the Israelis.

Israel's actions meet the description above.

That DOES NOT take away from the barbarity and acts of terrorism that Hamas carried out on 7th October.

Neither has the moral high ground and neither should be treated as if they do.

Of course not. I can't imagine having a mindset that equate the Warsaw uprising with Hamas attacks

I'm hoping that i'm misunderstanding you, and you don't really mean that

I agree @RedToothBrush - the suffering on each side doesn't excuse the horrors they commit.

And that definition of ethnic cleansing almost applies, to my understanding, but not quite because they aren't letting them go anywhere.

The Israelis aren't letting Gazan's leave, they are keeping them contained in the same (tiny) area. It's wholesale destruction and it's a staggering amount of civilian deaths, yes, but if they were ethnically cleansing the area, they'd be trying to get rid of Gaza's, not keeping them trapped there.

Pefrsonally, the only outcomes I can see are losses for Israel, losses for the population of Gaza, and wins for Hamas. Hamas don't give a shit how many Gazans are killed, it's all collateral damage for them.

If the entire population of Israel and Palistine were wiped off the earth bar one person, and that person was Palestinian, Hamas would call that a victory.

Hear hear 🙌🙌

Back to treating hostages well, now ffs

Shame on you

Really, shame on you

@Depdawg If you care to watch any videos you can see for yourself. They were all lucky to be alive after the bombardment from Israel. I knew you would pick up on that comment and completely ignore the point. What would you, someone who I’m sure could not cope for one week living in Gaza, advise them to do? Being kept in an open air prison for almost two decades? Bare in mind half the population are children and never voted for Hamas

@backtowinter I will never feel ashamed from a genocide defender. Shame on you

There is a label for her, but I can't type it.

That doesn't work though, its what we have now - (with liberties taken) a group (Palestinians) feeling displaced in a refugee center (Gaza) and trying to demand their grievances be addressed by the world and whose anger results in a terrorist group taking charge to force the issue and then a response to the terror. We can move it around like musical chairs but its not a solution and I'm not sure there is one

Yes, that actually makes a lot of sense, I can see that.

I know, it's not an easy answer and there's so much pain and 'right' on both sides (not Hamas, of course - Palestine and Israel). And I can understand that Egypt would be afraid of terrorists, I guess. But surely at least letting children, elderly people and injured/sick people out couldn't have hurt. More expensive to care for those demographics though, I guess.
Ugh, sorry, I was probably stupid to even ask. It's obviously massively difficult to get people out. It's just so tragic all round.

Such comments implying massacring of civilians in Gaza isn’t occurring fast enough to indicate intent to hurt civilians is truly confusing. The numbers are independent from intent when you look at the definition of genocide anyway, but if you do link the two, as you have done, then it appears that the numbers would indicate some sort of intent or at the very least least criminal negligence or incompetence resulting in complete disregard for civilian lives.

During the 3 years of the Bosnian genocide, 38,000 civilians were massacred out of 2 million refugees, or just over 1,000 civilians per month. Compared to Gaza, there have been days where 1,000 were massacred in 24hrs.

Subtracting out the week of ceasefire, it’s around 10,000 civilians massacred per month in Gaza, best estimate.

Gazan civilians have been massacred around 10x faster than Bosnian civilians were in a known and proven genocide.

So the speed at which Gazan civilians are being blown to bits doesn’t indicate an absence of intent to ethnically cleanse or commit genocide.

It's just so tragic all round.

I think anyone with a heart and soul intact can agree with that. It was a good question, I think people are just frustrated and taking it out on each other because there is no good solution.

I'm not a genocide defender.

I don’t understand when people say it’s difficult or there’s no solution. The solution is that Israel recognises that Palestinians have human rights and full autonomy over the pitiful land and sea they have access to. And if Israel can’t recognise that, and continue to kill, orphan and maim the Palestinians, then the whole world should be imposing sanctions. Israeli scholars should be shunned, Israeli films should be shunned, Israeli food in our supermarkets should be stopped. Any government committing humans rights atrocities like they are should be sanctioned.

Any human life that Israel allow to survive in Gaza will be hateful of them and prone to Hamas-like ideology. Who could blame them? They have bred a whole new level of hate and pain.

Well actually I will blame anybody, who has a "hamas-like ideology".
Do you not see the hypocrisy in your (ill selected) words?
Israel's people were slain in the most brutal manner.
They weren't exactly feeling great about it 🙄

@Depdawg history tells us that there are exceptional people who preach peaceful resistance - Gandhi and MLK, for example. The vast majority of oppressed people who have experienced extreme childhood trauma at the hands of oppressors will go on to be hateful and have the potential for radicalisation. I would not blame someone who at the age of 3 witnessed his mum, dad and brother’s murders, and then at a later attack had his legs blown off in a blast. I might be surprised that they were really hateful if they had access to the most incredible psychological therapy. I don’t think they have much of that in Gaza? This didn’t start on 17th October. The world has turned a blind eye to the treatment of Palestinians for years. It’s our dirty stain.

And the sick people who murdered the very innocent Israelis at the festival are not the innocent children and families currently being murdered in Gaza.

But 2X2X2, what if doing that means that Hamas continue to attack the Israeli people? They want to get rid of all Jewish people from Palestine, don't they? I think your solution would be really sensible if the whole conflict hadn't started in the first place. But it did and now it can't just be ended. It's the cyclical, chicken and egg type nature of the conflict that makes it so complicated to see your way through and understand how things can change.

Yes this. I’m amazed some people can’t comprehend this!

Where could they go? Genuine question